Immigration

[Norman Verona]

Aren't we missing the point. The vast majority of the people born in the UK or who have been here for, say, 5 years or more have jobs and pay tax and NI. We pay tax and NI to pay for our childrens' education and our health care.

 

Being second generation UK born I have no problem with immigration. But I do have a problem if people are coming to my country soley for benefits. That's why I suggest they only get the same benefits they would in their own country.

 

For the record my Grandparents came to this country in the 1920s and got no help whatsoever. They had to learn English and find an income without any state aid.

[waynezilla]

My problem is with the immigrants that come here to work in low/unskilled work on a short term basis. Work for six months, back home for six month, being replaced by a new influx on the same regime.

 

They often live several to a house and have minimal overheads. This drives wages waaaay down, and an unemployed person here for the long haul with families etc. just cannot compete. It is not a level playing field if you truly intend to settle here long term - which is probably the scenario immigration laws were created around in the first place.

 

The irony is that a lot of this economic activity just does not benefit the country as much of the money just leaves the country anyway, and creates an overhead in unemployment benefit in its wake. It must be a really dire situation to be a young, unemployed resident of the UK.

 

Something is definitely amiss. I commute to work on the train and have witnessed a new phenomena over the last five years. That is the army of eastern Europeans flooding out of the station on their way to work. Ten years ago I never noticed any. Surely if immigration is now so obvious and "in your face" then there must be a problem somewhere ?

 

I work with a lot of professionals who are immigrants, and have several immigrant friends too. Have absolutely no beef with these as they are settling here long term with jobs and families and returning plenty in taxes into the government coffers.

 

Figures say that immigrant workers are break-even when it comes to the benefit/tax equation, but I reckon the reality is that on the whole they (or their employers) should pay in far more to offset the effects of this low cost, low skill labour on the native unemployed. 

 

Its a sticky subject though and immigration is just one facet of the overall problem that we, as a country, are skint.

[XTR2Turbo]

immigration is just one facet of the overall problem that we, as a country, are skint.

That's the real problem ... generous welfare systems across Europe and the expanded EU experiment were derived when governments thought that there was an economic bubble that has long since burst for all apart from perhaps Germany.

 

We can't afford our own welfare bill let alone an expanded one.

 

The solution is the same one for our own population as it is for immigration.  It needs to get closer to a safety net and not a lifestyle option or support system.

[XTR2Turbo]

Aren't we missing the point. The vast majority of the people born in the UK or who have been here for, say, 5 years or more have jobs and pay tax and NI. We pay tax and NI to pay for our childrens' education and our health care.

No actually the vast majority of people do not pay for what they get out.  They may make a contribution.  In most cases that contribution is less than they cost and for many their contribution is close to zero.

 

That of course is the idea of a welfare system - to look after those in need etc.   The problem is when you have housing benefit costing more than £25k a year for some family's in London it is no longer a safety net !

 

The system is broken across most of developed Europe.

 

The problem is there aren't votes (generally) for governments taking away what people perceive they are entitled to so the fundamental flaw with most democratic governments serving short terms is that they continually 'bribe' the electorate with social benefits.

 

To properly balance its books and pay back debt the government should have a target of cutting it's spending by about 30%  but it will never happen.

 

Just interest on government debt now costs more than our whole defence budget.

[Norman Verona]

If, as you say, the majority take out more than they put in then one of two things must happen. Either the bit they take out must be reduced or the bit they put in myst be increased.

However, it's not that simple as you must add corporation tax and VAT into the equation as well as many other sources of revenue, like road fund licence and fuel duty.

Overall, I would agree that cerain benifits should be reduced or time limited. Housing benefit being the main one but there are many more.

Our benefit culture has grown slowly over many years. It is abused widely if I'm to believe what I see on the TV. Like the two sisters who just kept phoning the benefits office to report another child diagnosed with autism and getting thir benifit increased. No checks were made, no medical evidence required, just a phone call and the benefit was increased.

[jeff oakley]

The reason so many come here is they want to work. Go to East Anglia and you will see the home born people sat on their A*** taking the benefits that allow then a good standard of lifestyle. The immigrants work in the fields hard doing the jobs our own people refuse to do.

 

They come as they find work easy to get. Go in any resteraunt, hotel and you will see hard working immigrants. I met two who worked at the Days Inn Hotel on the M1 near London. They had a plan, work hard, they lived in staff accommadation, save hard and in five years they will go home with enough money to buy a farm.

 

I wish many British had the same work ethic and commitment as these two.

 

We need a two prong attack on this; one cut benefits to make work a better option, two make benefit available only after you have paid into the system for at least a year. This will stop our own young from sitting doing nothing and put others off coming for that.

 

It is strange seeing in Sheffield the immigrants of the 70's, who were hated at first but intigrated to become good citizens in the main, now seeing the Romas who are already here as threats to the British way of life, maybe they understand more than others.

[waynezilla]

They had a plan, work hard, they lived in staff accommadation, save hard and in five years they will go home with enough money to buy a farm.

 

 

The benefits system is truely broken, I agree.

 

However, if you worked hard for five years on a minimum wage in a restaurant could you buy a farm here ? Could you even buy a run-down terrace ?

 

Cost of living means that a wage for an immigrant who can slum it for a few years and  intends to return home has much more value than the person who intends to or needs to stay.

 

While I agree that there is something of a "benefit culture" in this country, its a bit too much of a generalisation to label all unemployed (even long term unemployed) lazy.

 

I agree the government need to increase the size of the stick, but the carrot should be bigger too. Can you imagine the effect on manufacturing, industry and engineering if only a tiny fraction of the money splurged on rescuing banks was invested in their growth? There would certainly have been more of a trickle down effect to the poorer in the form of jobs, plus our GDP would probably improve and return the investment back in the long term. There is just no urgency to make sustainable job creation a priority.

 

From head to toe the system is broken - short termism in government (vote winning policies and cronyism), broken economy (housing bubbles and banking crisis), declining manufacturing and industry, EU dictats, etc. etc.etc All things are linked and generally work against the interests of the young, unemployed or low skilled in this country.

 

I think we probably agree, so I'll leave it at that. Otherwise I could rant and rant and rant ad infinitum about our politicians (of all flavours).

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

The reason so many come here is they want to work. Go to East Anglia and you will see the home born people sat on their A*** taking the benefits that allow then a good standard of lifestyle. The immigrants work in the fields hard doing the jobs our own people refuse to do.

 

They come as they find work easy to get. Go in any resteraunt, hotel and you will see hard working immigrants. I met two who worked at the Days Inn Hotel on the M1 near London. They had a plan, work hard, they lived in staff accommadation, save hard and in five years they will go home with enough money to buy a farm.

 

I wish many British had the same work ethic and commitment as these two.

 

We need a two prong attack on this; one cut benefits to make work a better option, two make benefit available only after you have paid into the system for at least a year. This will stop our own young from sitting doing nothing and put others off coming for that.

 

It is strange seeing in Sheffield the immigrants of the 70's, who were hated at first but intigrated to become good citizens in the main, now seeing the Romas who are already here as threats to the British way of life, maybe they understand more than others.

 

 

It was quite amusing, in a cynical sense, when the big Polish influx was under way, it was reported in local papers that many settled Asians in Slough were heard to complain about the numbers of Polish incomers upsetting the status quo.

 

As an aside, I had a Polish chap do some exterior painting and repair work for me and he was fairly priced, very hard working, and even though it took longer than he estimated, wouldn't take a penny more than he'd quoted. He and his Polish mate even refused tea/coffee until late morning so that they wouldn't be tempted to have too many breaks! He'd been here ten years, so might have not been typical, I have no way of knowing. I'd employ him again like a shot, though.

[Norman Verona]

I think MOTCO has hit the nail on the head. The Eastern European workers work harder than UK workers and don't expect huge wages. I watched a programme (couple of years ago) where London plumbers were expecting to earn £1000 per day and were complaining that the Poles were working for far less, spoiling it for them.

 

It's my experience over here. The Brit builders, plasterers, plumbers, electricians expect to earn £300 per day whereas the French artisans will do the same job, in a quicker time, at half that price. 

 

We just had 3 out of 4 sides of the roof replaced. Excellent job and absolutely no complaints. Wayne gave a price and kept to it. He ran over on time mainly due to poor weather. However he would turn up at 09:45. Got to lunch at 12:00 and return at 14:00 and pack up and go home for 17:00. Whereas I would have started at 08:00, had 1/2 hour lunch at 13:00 and gone home no earlier than 18:00. 

[Norman Verona]

Can someone clarify something for me.

 

One of the posts above and I've heard it on the TV, EU countries are supposed to offer EU migrants the same benefits as their own people get.

 

If that is correct then why do the Brits not get access to the French medical system until the UK government issue a card when we reach retirement age. We got the first year as that's covered by a card (is it E111) but when that expires we had to wait for one of us to reach retirement age to get the other card (E121?) In the 18 months between the two we had to pay full price for consultations and drugs.

 

I suspect it's the French saying "why should we pay". The cards issued by the UK government have a payment from UK to France involved.

 

Maybe we should start doing as the French (and the rest of the EU countries) do.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

You mean ignoring EU directives where they are not convenient, Norman?

[Norman Verona]

YES.

[waynezilla]

As far as I'm aware, the eastern Europeans are not genetically bred to be hard working though. Given the same opportunity or situation a Briton would do exactly the same...

 

I had a guy replace a roof recently - very competitive price, conscientious, hard working (in some pretty abysmal weather) and "went that extra mile". He was a scouser....

 

If British wages were effectively the same as those in eastern Europe, how many would you find working over here ? Likewise, wages were better over there you can bet a large number of "us" would be over there doing their roofs. Remember Auf Weidersehn Pet ?

 

Be carfeul not to vilify those unemployed due to economic imbalance and freedom of movement of labour inside the EU. There by the grace of God etc. etc.

[Captain Colonial]

Flaming immigrants...what are they good for, anyway?

 

Signed,

Captain Colonial (ex-immigrant and now naturalised citizen )

[jeff oakley]

I can only speak as I find. I run several branches, in London we have a lot of forgien workers and they are fantastic workers. Around the UK we have equally hard working people. The problem is too many times we have interviewed people who are capable of work and accept the job, the don't turn up. When we look into this the usual answer is that they are worse off working as they lose benefit. It is the system that allows someone to turn down paid work when offerred to them.

 

People have said they are £10 per week worse off so why work 40 hours to lose £10? There is a lack of pride for too many and yes not all unemployed are lazy. I was out of work due to the miners strike, twice. I took any job going. When it was clear that South Yorkshire had nothing to offer job security wise I moved to Bristol, took a huge mortgae and chance rather than stay put. I have met people who will not take a job as they would need to travel half an hour each way!!

 

The worst one I interviewed was in Southampton, he had a huge gap in his CV so usually that is prison travel or illness. He was quite open, he was a trained draughtsman at Thorney Croft in southampton. One day he decided the well paid job was not for him, so quit to find a suitable job, he was still looking. In the mean time he had married had two kids, lived in a council house and needed a salary of £35k clear to pay him to work.

When I contacted the Job centre to report him as clearly he had no intention to work, their answer was that somone else would take the job!!.

 

That is why we need and allow immigration as if the benefit system was a safety net, not a lifstyle choice for some, they would be forced to work. If there were no jobs immigrants would not come.