Track Day Accident - Court awards costs

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

Having had my Westfield on the road for less than a year and having only done two track days I have witnessed cars overtaking on corners and ignoring multiple flags both of which were prohibited during the drivers brief therefore I would class doing either as being negligent on behalf of both the drivers and, if not picked up, the Marshalls.  Occasionally running out of talent and spinning is not what I would call negligent and I like the "spin you're in" approach operated by MSE as it enforces a breather and chance to check the car over, MSE will also black flag drivers who repeatedly lose control. I've spun and missed the occasional flag through being focused on a corner but it's usually obvious when all the other cars are responding to flags and slowing. I personally allow an overtaking car to pull well away so that I have plenty of space to avoid another driver tripping up.  I've been watching this thread with a degree of concern because track days are a big part in me wanting to own a Westfield and I was happy with the "racing" principle of "fix your own" whilst attending well run days but I'm now not so sure due to the personal injury and lack of an a commonly understood definition of negligence.

 

I have only ever been on MSE trackdays (airfield days to be more accurate) so I have no first hand knowledge of any other. However I have read accounts from others of poor discipline such as you describe and have no desire to be anywhere near them. MSE are strict in my experience, and only occasionally have I been overtaken by someone on one of their days with what is a much faster straight-line car at points where they should not. Usually they have come up behind very quickly too far down a straight to safely pass, and whilst I would always let any car past that's sniffing at my back-end, it has to be where it is permitted so my habit would be to clear the next corner as quickly as I realistically can, indicate right, and slow so the faster car can get its overtake done quickly. Usually, as I said earlier, I would actively encourage any following car to pass even if they were keeping station because I don't want the stress of having be be worried that they might pile into me if I were to spin. It's clear that some drivers are lap timing, and they don't want to interrupt their lap because of a slower car in their way. MSE stress that lap timing is forbidden, but data loggers and dash-cams make it so easy to carry out covertly. Generally speaking a well run track day is safer than the journey to and from the venue if you obey the organisers' rules. The number of cars on track at any one time at MSE days is usually such that there's plenty of space to explore your limits with very little danger. Usual disclaimers...

[jonjh1964]

MOTCO - both my track days have been with MSE at airfields and I've been impressed with the overall organisation for the day and gone away with a big grin.  Sounds like we've both had similar experience witnessing individuals who have ignored the morning drivers brief and overtaken on corners and ignored blue flags to allow faster cars to overtake on the straights.  Whilst I've been happy to drive without insurance with like minded individuals who follow the track day rules I would less than impressed if I had turned into a corner on the racing line and collected some idiot who was overtaking inside me.  It sounds like your approach is similar to mine, indicate and let them through ASAP then give them plenty of space just in case.  If followed by everyone track days would be significantly lower risk than the journey to and from the event (which we have to have insurance for) however, this still doesn't account for the more cavalier who, whilst in the minority, are still out there.

 

Jon

[Dommo]

I would less than impressed if I had turned into a corner on the racing line and collected some idiot who was overtaking inside me

 

I had just that on an MSE day in July, though I think it was more a case of braking too late rather than going for the over take. The organisers didn't see it so no action taken, which is fair enough. The standard of driving at the MSE day yesterday was pretty good I think. It's definitely not put me off track days.

[M444TTB]

Ah yes the Westfield driver that didn't even offer up an apology for hitting you. I think he thought you should be happy he didn't ram you from behind!

[stephenh]

But in the case in question no-one was overtaking anyone else, just drivers exceeding their own ability....    

[M444TTB]

Nobody on a track day exceeds their own ability. It's always the car or the fault of a passenger. Right Dom?

[Dommo]

Some people just have unlucky passengers

 

Agreed on Stephen's point - I'm quite satisfied it wasn't a malicious overtake, just a senior moment.

[User0083]

Not read every post here.

I was obviously mislead in the understanding that track day's were "Private land, not roads, not insured" other than insurance for third party personal injury. So could the £21k be for broken limbs, missed work, PTSD or similar? I thought vehicles were not covered on track days.

In 2004 I had my major incident on the Nürburgring. Bike in front went sideways, at speed, no time to react I hit him, 2 bikes behind hit us too. One hell of a mangled mess with two fatalities. Yet, as far as I know, nobody went after anybody for financial costs. I'd lost my Ducati 916r, list of injuries that scare me and most nurses. But at no point did I think "I'm going to take the deceased person at fault to court for damages" I put it down to individual choice for attending a track day.

I feel this whole "I'm injured I'm after money" thing has got ridiculous. I'm sure America were the leaders if this in the 90's.

[jeff oakley]

I think driving standards are pretty good on track now. Yes there are still some idiots but the organisers are pretty hot on this now. Castle Combe action days are always a bit "special" as there are some heros with zero talent who have managed to find £20 for their 5 laps and get it wrong. But they are pulled off quick and are not allowed back on.

 

MSE are really hot and I have seen people pulled off, not because they were deliberatly causing issues, they just needed help as they were inexperianced.

 

I have done a few days but I still drive defensivly on track days. it is not a race so if soemone is in the wrong place make space. I use the mirrors a lot but others never do until you are right there if they haven't indicated they have seen you assume they have not.

 

We can still have fun

[User0083]

Looked at a few other posts and I agree that track days I have attended have been very well run and great fun.

However witnessing the heart stopping moment of someone running out of talent followed by another driver unable to avoid the inevitable I have decided that I'm a road only driver now. I can't afford another knock to the head and I don't feel it's worth the risk to my .

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I must admit that I very nearly signed up for Hullavington on Friday last, but that it wasn't this furore that stopped me, but the prospect of two hours trailering back on the M4 on a Friday evening with the inevitable traffic problems. Had it been Abingdon - a better layout for a modestly powered Seven than the long straights at Hullavington - I would have been there. 

[Hellski]

I did my first ever track day at Hullavington with MSE Friday and to say I was apprehensive following recent events is an understatement! Thankfully I had nothing to worry about, MSE controlled the event in a very professional manner and my experience out on track was that everyone respected each other.

Great to meet Dom, Stuart & a big thanks to Mike who took me under his wing on the first session showing me the correct line and obesticals (2 concrete platforms) to be avoided; he also showed me I've got a lot to learn, by the 3rd lap he was a spec in the distance!! I took advantage of the instruction available which was fantastic & thankfully by the end of the day, I felt my personal pace had picked up, which I was well chuffed with; oh until Stuart suddenly appeared in my mirrors and then left me standing as though I was in reverse; 1.6 who you trying to kid;).................

Anyway what I'm trying to get at is that any newbie thinking of going out on track and may have been put off by this and other threads of late, DON'T BE! I now appreciate that unfortunate incidents are very isolated & if you drive as already mentioned in an earlier post & not try to be a hero, you've got nothing to worry about.

Conclusion, I'm well & truely hooked and already looking to book my next track day; who knows I may even have ago at a couple of Speed series events next year!!!!!

[M444TTB]

guest - Were you on a proper track day at the Ring? Presumably you were as the financial consequences of death and serious injury on a TF session are massive. Not sure if want to take a bike round there other than at a touring pace. I'd love to do a proper track day there but I'd still be running at 8/10ths rather than 9/10ths on a normal track day.

Castle Combe action days are certainly interesting. A few friends and I considered picking up a load of Micras or similar for £250 each to use there. Go at it BTCC style! But given it's up to £35 for 5 laps these days it's hardly worth it.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

The point of it was that it WASN'T the drivers that went to court; he would have very little choice in the matter.

 

To summarise fairly briefly. Caterham driver spins and ends up on run off area. Honda drive also spins, enters same run off area and collides with Caterham which is heavily damaged.

 

Caterham driver, like a number of Westfield drivers, has trackday cover from the insurer Chaucer. Chaucer very quickly and straightforwardly pay up the circa £21000 for the destroyed Caterham. 

 

Caterham driver thinks nothing more of it, UNTILL, Chaucer announce they are taking the Honda driver to court to recover the £21k. The Caterham driver has little to no say in the matter.

 

Chaucer win the court case. The Honda driver is found liable for the damages, which will possibly bankrupt him. Internet goes wild. Chaucer suddenly back track and announce they have no intention of actually collecting the damages and were just doing it to expose the third party liability problem.

 

(Think that's about right!)

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Side fact that comes to light during these threads is that many European countries require compulsory third party insurance for track day participants.