NHS. Why?

[Norman Verona]

Listening to the news about North Staffs hospital it says that the author is calling for the law to be changed to allow prosecutions in future incidents.

 

Why? 

 

The managers of that hospital should be prosecuted for manslaughter NOW.

 

 

 

Also I see that the cure for the problem is thought to be to put another tier of management in.

 

I would have said sack all the managers, put the doctors in charge of their own departments and spend the huge savings on more medical staff.

[pistonbroke]

Dont be silly , this is the NHS we are talking about

[User0083]

Doctors in charge of their departments???

Isn't it funny how you give someone a title, Dr, and everyone thinks they are the answer to everything and god like. Doctors know poke all about ward management. They are Doctors and struggle enough with treating patients as it is. Their work load is more than they can handle. Same as everyone in the NHS.

What they need is less management roles, more caring roles and management roles to actually do their jobs. Too many nurses are too posh to wash, managers are too important to leave the office, everyone passes jobs to other people and nobody takes responsibility. That's the issue we have with the NHS. Too easy to job dodge!

GP's are now being given budget responsibilities... That's cracking! They need accountants, or someone that know what actually goes on. Some Dr's are so stuck in 1885, where the real world hasn't integrated with theirs. Things like red wine having less sugar than white, so safe for diabetics. Well wine contains alcohol, sugar produces the alcohol... Thus no difference. But patients trust a Dr's word... "They're a doctor, they know". Some of the things doctors have said to patients is amazing, but their word's taken as gospel.

Before an argument starts, doctors are very good at their speciality... Some are magical and really know their fecal matter! But this whole god like status they get is really ridiculous and makes me giggle. I often get "So are you a nurse to become a Doctor?" These patients then get a shake of the head and a smile, followed by "No, I like patient care, to get to know a patient and control their recovery... How often do you see a doctor? Once, twice a day... If you're lucky? Then who do they turn to for advice on plan of care, yes the nurse. Who's been with you for 12hours a day and knows you better than anyone else in the hospital.". Doctors are doctors, so let them be a doctor! If you give them a hundred other responsibilities, how can they be a doctor?

[User0083]

Just to add to my little rant...

NHS tourists and non contributing patients must be a huge drain on resources... In theory the NHS is a noble quest, however in practice I feel it is one of the many things sinking out country.

For £20-£30 a month you can have private insurance, covering you for £100,000's of treatment and a much higher standard of food, beds and hospital. However most staff are ex NHS, agency or not too good. Many work for NHS, doing private health care on the side!

[jeff oakley]

A lot of the managers are actually medical staff, so MAtron is now director of nursing, they have ward managers etc etc. The NHS needs managers to pay suppliers, wages, order goods, feed patients etc etc without them nothing happens.

What seems to have happened here is some of those who were tasked with actually doing the nursing and giving medical care failed to do what they were paid to do. Some of the basics failed as guest says , nurses who won't wash their hands, who now have a degree so feeding people is the job of the care assistants who may or may not speak english.

To me there has been failings all around, but would anything be gained by trying for a prosecution now? It would go on in litigation for years, just because someone died does not mean they would not have elsewhere. As a group they might well have expected more to have lived but that is not enough proof for a conviction.

An inspector of hospitals with teeth would be a good start, for heavens sake, we have them for prisons but not for somewhere where innocent people go.

Finally, in many of these cases I am stunned to hear that families witnessed the lack of care, saw toilets so bad they cleaned them themselves and yet apparently did nothing. If that was me the press etc would be there so fast and the family member moved.

 

No doubt the no wins are lined up already

[martyblues]

Speaking as a patient I have no probs with the NHS I went in dying came out fixed.

I can't believe that i am just one of the lucky one's.

OK the food was a bit iffy but that was hardly an issue.

Some staff were a bit growly about 5% i would say but then anyone can have a bad day.

I know there are problems and i am not qualified to even think about a solution for such a huge organisation.

Private insurance sounds great until you try to get some with an existing condition and will it cover an individual when dementure sets in.

[Norman Verona]

The doctors in French hospitals manage their own departments.

 

But there you go, they don't spend 1/3rd of their wage budget on non-medical staff.

[Norman Verona]

Anyway, back to the point of the thread.

 

In any other industry the managers would be prosecuted for causing the death of people in their care. Why not the NHS.

[greenandmean]

Couldn't agree more Norman its time all these turkeys were held responsible for their actions, not just NHS managers how about parole boards who release prisoners who have given them the old sob story and within hours (sometimes) of release then reoffend.

 

Politicians who promise the earth then deliver next to nothing, sent an e mail to the useless waste of space that occupies No 10 at the moment saying how about a party manifesto becoming a legally binding document, funnily enough I have had no reply, and before anyone says they are accountable and can be voted out, going into opposition whilst retaining all expense and pension rights doesn't seem like much of a hardship to me.

 

I'm sure other people can think of lots of other instances, but as a site manager who is responsible in a court of law should any of the workers on site suffer through things I have or indeed have not done it makes my p*** boil to see all these people in positions of trust who seemingly get away without any recourse no matter what mistakes they make or the consequences of those mistakes.

 

Rant over.

[martyblues]

Back to the thread

the results of the enquiry into staffs incident (and others )came out today i believe.the chief exec of the nhs got a grilling on sky news today his answers were pretty weak imo so lets hope that those responsible are brought to book. public opinion might make some difference for a change the politicos will jump on the band wagon which hunt death by sword up the A*** just like richy the 3rd now me dinners ready

[bhouse]

how about a party manifesto becoming a legally binding document.

Now that is a seriously good idea.

[martyblues]

Fat chance but gets my vote

[User0083]

Legally binding!!!

Good idea!

The whole staffs thing is not reflective of the NHS. But the issue with any plan is the fossils that say "I've been doing it this way since 1962 and has always worked!"... They'll never change there ways and taking on a French style of management would leave British Doctors lost and require re training.

Best system I've been a patient under is the German one. Not sure how it all works. But my time in Germany as a whole was far better than the uk.

I feel the staff's staff should be held responsible and punished accordingly.

[Norman Verona]

The point I was making was the inference that no one can be prosecuted and it would need a change of law.

 

All I was asking was why can't the managers be prosecuted?

 

The report says that management forgot the hospital was supposed to care for patients and only concentrated on keeping costs within budgets. Reports are that between 400 and 1200 people died from this.

 

The prosecution don't have to prove they all died as a direct result of the neglect, one will do.

 

The main problem with the NHS getting medical people to run their departments is that the consultants don't work for the NHS. 

 

Whilst not wishing to start an argument, surely those that champion the NHS should ask themselves have they experienced any other countries system. I have and I'm so happy that Lynne was taken ill here and not in the UK. I'm also glad that my heart condition was diagnosed here and not in the UK. I had an Ultra Sound within 2 hours of diagnosis here. Then, a few months later, in the UK, I waited 3 months. 

 

In France you can't get health care on the system without a "Carte Vittal". Would the cost of issuing everyone entitled a card be more than is spent on treatment for those not entitled? (genuine question)

 

 

As for politicians, they're all the same. None will take responsibility.

[User0083]

Sorry for going off on one!

You're right though, managers would be held ultimately responsible in any other kind of company/business.

If any one of the individual cases was taken through the NMC correctly the individual would be held responsible.

I feel that loss of career, naming and a minimum of a police record should be carpet punishment. Yes manslaughter could've been put across, but ensuring they never work in a responsible job or can get a job abroad is damage limitation and a more achievable out come.