Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 OK, I'll have a stab at explaining the venting business Even in a healthy engine, there are a lot of moving parts whizzing about at high speed, in addition you have high pressures being developed above the pistons during combustion. If the seal between piston and the cylinder it's running in is less than perfect, some of this gas pressure will get past the piston down into the bottom of the engine, known as the crank case. The combination of these two things means, that typically, there is a higher pressure of gas in the crankcase than outside the engine. If this was allowed to go on unchecked, it would eventually find its own way out - past oil seals etc. not good. So engine designers fit vents. Because this gas contains combustion by-products and sometimes a little engine oil, it can come out as a fine oily mist, also not good, either for the environment or the track/road surface that the oil lands on. For environmental reasons, car makers aren't allowed to vent the gas straight to atmosphere, so in a production car, it's fed via hoses, and sometimes an oil trap back up into the inlet manifold, where it may go through another valve before the gas is fed back into the engine and re burnt. However, in cars that have had the original fuel injection system removed and replaced with carbs etc. there's no where for this breather system to go, it's very, very rare for the carb set up to be adapted for the breather to connect as its bad for performance. So in your set up, the breather would either be left venting straight to atmosphere, or, preferably, the pipe would go to what's called a catch tank. This is a (usually, but not always), metal tank with one or more hoses coming in from the engine breathers and a hose or maybe just a short pipe coming out with a filter on the end for the gas to escape. The tank catches the oily dregs and stops them getting on the road/track. As your engine is still quite new and being run in, the rings that fit round the pistons to seal them into the cylinders won't have been bedded in straight away, and will let more gas past. So your engine is likely to "breath" more at first. This should be going to a tank though and not into the engine. That said, a little oil may be finding its way back up the bores, in the same way that it can on a high milage engine with worn bores or rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 OK, I'll have a stab at explaining the venting business Even in a healthy engine, there are a lot of moving parts whizzing about at high speed, in addition you have high pressures being developed above the pistons during combustion. If the seal between piston and the cylinder it's running in is less than perfect, some of this gas pressure will get past the piston down into the bottom of the engine, known as the crank case. The combination of these two things means, that typically, there is a higher pressure of gas in the crankcase than outside the engine. If this was allowed to go on unchecked, it would eventually find its own way out - past oil seals etc. not good. So engine designers fit vents. Because this gas contains combustion by-products and sometimes a little engine oil, it can come out as a fine oily mist, also not good, either for the environment or the track/road surface that the oil lands on. For environmental reasons, car makers aren't allowed to vent the gas straight to atmosphere, so in a production car, it's fed via hoses, and sometimes an oil trap back up into the inlet manifold, where it may go through another valve before the gas is fed back into the engine and re burnt. However, in cars that have had the original fuel injection system removed and replaced with carbs etc. there's no where for this breather system to go, it's very, very rare for the carb set up to be adapted for the breather to connect as its bad for performance. So in your set up, the breather would either be left venting straight to atmosphere, or, preferably, the pipe would go to what's called a catch tank. This is a (usually, but not always), metal tank with one or more hoses coming in from the engine breathers and a hose or maybe just a short pipe coming out with a filter on the end for the gas to escape. The tank catches the oily dregs and stops them getting on the road/track. As your engine is still quite new and being run in, the rings that fit round the pistons to seal them into the cylinders won't have been bedded in straight away, and will let more gas past. So your engine is likely to "breath" more at first. This should be going to a tank though and not into the engine. That said, a little oil may be finding its way back up the bores, in the same way that it can on a high milage engine with worn bores or rings. Thank you Gadgetman, if I read it slowly it seems to make sense. I will be contacting Westfield tomorrow in any event. Curiosity got the better of me this morning, so I fired her up to see if there were any clues. The exhaust blew out initially a fair amount of condensation along with what appears to be carbon (black dust in appearance). I am not sure if I should expect this from a new engine. However, in the coolant system I think I may have found the biggest clue. In the pressurised reserve bottle is a small amount of emulsion floating on the water and some clinging to the bottle higher than the waterline. In my non-technical mind I interpret this as water and oil mixing, which I don't think is good. Oil levels appear to be ok but not the easiest to read and the colour is turning from clear towards black as I would expect albeit quite soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Depends how much emulsion. For every gallon of fuel burnt, an internal combustion engine produces about a gallon of water. Most of it leaves invisibly in the exhaust gasses. Some of that moisture will find it's way in to the breather system and over time may appear as a small amount of emulsion. Condensation cycles over winter in the garage may exacerbate the symptom, making it appear like there is a problem brewing. Then there is the question of how many parts were new and how many were "reconditioned". The lubricants used during assembly and that get applied to new parts to keep them free of corrosion can also leave a film of oil in the water that can be quite hard to erradicate. Again, it's not the fact there there appears to be a rainbow of "oil" in the water, but how much and whether it's getting worse. Running in oil will go black quite quickly. But then, even fresh oil from now on will appear to darken quickly as you can never get all the old oil out of the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Depends how much emulsion. For every gallon of fuel burnt, an internal combustion engine produces about a gallon of water. Most of it leaves invisibly in the exhaust gasses. Some of that moisture will find it's way in to the breather system and over time may appear as a small amount of emulsion. Condensation cycles over winter in the garage may exacerbate the symptom, making it appear like there is a problem brewing. Then there is the question of how many parts were new and how many were "reconditioned". The lubricants used during assembly and that get applied to new parts to keep them free of corrosion can also leave a film of oil in the water that can be quite hard to erradicate. Again, it's not the fact there there appears to be a rainbow of "oil" in the water, but how much and whether it's getting worse. Running in oil will go black quite quickly. But then, even fresh oil from now on will appear to darken quickly as you can never get all the old oil out of the engine. That's really helpful, thank you. I guess the one overwhelming factor however, is that at about 60 miles an hour, the cars behind me put on their fog lights. I shall ring Westfield in the morning. Thank you very much for all your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I guess the one overwhelming factor however, is that at about 60 miles an hour, the cars behind me put on their fog lights. That's not good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Indeed, given that it's under warranty, don't do anything further till you've spoken to the factory. Though I suppose it might be worth check oil level first, but as Blatman said, that really doesn't sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 Indeed, given that it's under warranty, don't do anything further till you've spoken to the factory. Though I suppose it might be worth check oil level first, but as Blatman said, that really doesn't sound good. Hi Gents I spoke to the factory this morning and they think they have seen this problem before, when it has been overfilled with oil!!! The dipstick they have supplied appears to be the wrong one. The correct one should have a notch marked on it between the min & max mark. This apparently is because the remove the Ford sump and replace it with a Westfield one. I am now waiting for them to come back to me this afternoon. In your opinion, if this is the route of the problem, will any permanent damage have been done. I will have done less than two miles with it throwing out smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 As a naive and callow youth I took someone's advice on filling my engine with oil, DESPITE what the dip stick was telling me. Trust the gauge not the dip stick my A***! Any hoo, driving along, went to overtake a truck, huge clouds of light grey smoke bellowing out the exhaust.. I killed the engine and coasted into a handy car park, where O called the AA. The patro Chappie was very brisk and efficient, (TBH I was on my way back from a really gruelling interview "course" so a bit zonked anyway). He got the engine going, no smoke, called me over said to drive home taking it steady. Then he held up an old oil can pointed at it, and said "best to keep your spare oil in here in the future, the engine only holds so much" Followed his instructions and took it to the garage next day, had to have all the breathers stripped down and cleaned out, the manifold and throttle body cleaned out and a new front crank seal. Fingers crossed that you're luckier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 As a naive and callow youth I took someone's advice on filling my engine with oil, DESPITE what the dip stick was telling me. Trust the gauge not the dip stick my A***! Any hoo, driving along, went to overtake a truck, huge clouds of light grey smoke bellowing out the exhaust.. I killed the engine and coasted into a handy car park, where O called the AA. The patro Chappie was very brisk and efficient, (TBH I was on my way back from a really gruelling interview "course" so a bit zonked anyway). He got the engine going, no smoke, called me over said to drive home taking it steady. Then he held up an old oil can pointed at it, and said "best to keep your spare oil in here in the future, the engine only holds so much" Followed his instructions and took it to the garage next day, had to have all the breathers stripped down and cleaned out, the manifold and throttle body cleaned out and a new front crank seal. Fingers crossed that you're luckier. Hi Gadgetman That really tickled me. Westfield have now come back to me and if they are true to their word, of which I have no doubt, are arranging to send a technician to my home over the next few days to change all the necessary bits. Thats about a 240 mile round trip to Rossendale and back. In this day and age I really didn't expect that level of service. A massive thank you to all who contributed to this topic, it is really refreshing to talk to individuals that have such a wealth of knowledge, even if some appear to be as daft as me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Everyone had to learn at some point some lessons are harder won than others! (specially when you're an eighteen year old student on a budget). It's also what left me with a habit of questioning advice, not 'cause I think it may be wrong, just to try and understand "why" The withering look that AA man gave me haunted me for years To be honest though, after the three day residential interview panel, my mate could have told me black was white and I'd have probably believed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 We all never stop learning, do we. Westfield have been on the phone to tell me they will be up on Wednesday, at 10. They are also fitting a "catch tank" free of charge, whatever that is. Amazing service. :d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The catch tank is what the engines breather system will connect to on your engine, and "catch" any oil that gets spat out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 A massive thank you to all who contributed to this topic, it is really refreshing to talk to individuals that have such a wealth of knowledge, even if some appear to be as daft as me! Interesting use of the words "some" and "appear"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 Amazing forum - thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healden Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 For those of you who have been following this topic, a gent called Mick arrived at my house just after 8 this morning and two hours later the problem was fixed. I cannot fault Westfield in any way. A fast and professional response. First class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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