FW500 Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 So good that he needs to run people off the road because he cant beat them fairly , even block the track completely so he cant get beaten to pole position Best of his era ? most winning driver? Yes , but that doesnt make him best , IMO OK so you've brought up 2 iffy incidents in a 16 year career - I didn't say he's perfect. How many iffy incidents could I chuck at Hamilton in a career of only a few years? How many could I chuck at Senna or any great F1 driver for that matter. I'm sorry but if you don't recognise Schumacher as an F1 great you're doing so just because you don't like him. If he wasn't the best of his era somebody should have told Ferrari because they didn't seem to mind paying him more than any F1 driver ever has. If he wasn't the best of his era I'd love to know who was. Quote
pistonbroke Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 You condem Hamilton for weaving in your post , then say scummakers antics are fair ? I dont like scummaker ? whatever gave you that idea Quote
echoz Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 Lets not make this a debate on Shumacher LOL or we'll all be here all week FWIW I think Hamilton is acting like a spoilt Brat after his 1st year in F1. All the media has got to him and I thoroughly dislike the man now, unlike Button, who seems such a humble character. Good drive by Rosberg, and if my mind serves me right, another good drive by Kubica. Great to see Vettel make it to the flag this time for a well deserved victory, seems pretty untouchable when his car works Button, Vettel or WEbber to win for me please Quote
Blatman Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 QUOTE OK so you've brought up 2 iffy incidents in a 16 year career - I didn't say he's perfect. How many iffy incidents could I chuck at Hamilton in a career of only a few years? How many could I chuck at Senna or any great F1 driver for that matter. I'm sorry but if you don't recognise Schumacher as an F1 great you're doing so just because you don't like him. It's Bernies memory failing him. What about parking his car on the last corner at Monaco during qualifying? Or finishing the British GP in the pits following a black flag which he ignored? Or being a t*t and running in to the back of Coulthard in the Belgian GP? The "cheat" label is one he's been all to keen to help earn by his sometimes questionable actions on track. That's not to say that he's not supremely talented, he obviously is. He's just not the squeaky clean innocent victim of circumstance his fans make him out to be. I have no problem with win at all costs. BUT when you do and you get pulled for it, man up... Quote
FW500 Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 I'm a big Schumacher fan but my opinion on him is certainly not clouded - I know he's had a bit of a dodgy past but by the same token he certainly took the knocks too. Agreed Monaco wasn't a good idea, nor was Jerez in 1997, and Ignoring the black flag was silly too. But really - do you think any of the past greats were any different? It's easy for the haters to say stuff like 'having the most wins doesn't make him the best of his era' but quite frankly it does. There's only one objective in F1 - to win. You don't get points for being a nice bloke, for being a gentleman or for driving with style - you get the most points for winning races. And it's not even like that's his only acolade. Most wins, Most wins in a season (He also has 2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th, and joint 7th no of wins in a season) Most consecutive wins (record shares with Ascari) Most consecutive wins from 1st race of the season (record shares with Mansel) Most Pole positions Most Starts From the front row Most Fastest Laps Most Fastest Laps in a season Most Podium Finishes Most Podium Finishes in a season Most Consecutive Podium Finishes Most Consecutive Podium Finishes from 1st race of the season Most Career points Most Races finished in the points Most points earned per race entered (with the exception of some bloke that only ever entered 1 race and managed to get 6 points) Most Championship Points in a season (also came 2nd, 5th and 6th on this one) Most Races led for at least 1 lap Most laps led Longest distance led Most Poles achieved resulting in a win Most Poles achieved resulting in a win and a fastest lap of the race Most WDC won World Champion with most races left in the season Most points between first and second in the World Championship Most consecutive days as World Champion Most wins at the same Grand Prix Most different Grands Prix won Most wins with the same team Longest time between first and last wins Most consecutive seasons with at least one win Most race wins in one season without becoming World Champion (joint) Most races for the same team Most consecutive points finishes This proves 2 things - Schumacher is definately crap and I can navigate Wikipedia. Interestingly of the 111 F1 driver records on Wikipedia not one solitary top spot is occupied by Fangio which proves to me that you simply cannot compare a modern F1 driver with one of the fossils - it doesn't work. A man once said "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You can't take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison." That was said by the guy with the most driver records about a driver who has none. Quote
Blatman Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 QUOTE Agreed Monaco wasn't a good idea, nor was Jerez in 1997, and Ignoring the black flag was silly too. But really - do you think any of the past greats were any different? No, I suspect the vast majority had the same win at all costs mentality, it's just that Schumacher seems, for whatever reason (and I have no idea what it can be) to attract the sort of mud that sticks more than his predecessors. Quote
FW500 Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 No, I suspect the vast majority had the same win at all costs mentality, it's just that Schumacher seems, for whatever reason (and I have no idea what it can be) to attract the sort of mud that sticks more than his predecessors. I have an idea what the reason could be - the sport changed at an unfortunate time for Schumacher. The death of Senna shook the sport right up. It became no longer acceptable for drivers to run each other off the road, or make moves that we consider dangerous today. Schumacher was in F1 before the death of Senna and was possibly a driver in the 90's with the experience of a driver in the 80's. Quote
pistonbroke Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 All the scummaker stats you quote mean sod all if you factor in the number of races per season he competed in against the number of races for previous champions If you care to look at the form book there have been several occasions when the most succesful driver did not win the championship, so your argument that he who wins must be the best is null and void. Scummaker raced for Ferrari when the team almost always had a distinct advantage over others. Ross Brawn won most of his races for him in the pits His team mates were selected so they would be submissive and were forced to submit whenever they looked like challenging him Drivers prior to Senna/ Prost never played dirty the sport was far to dangerous to even think about ramming someone off the road . I would have loved to see Scummaker racing with someone with the talent of Ronnie Peterson or Giles Villanueve as a team mate . I never said skummaker was no good , he obviously was , I said he wasnt the best IMO. Jim Clark came within a whisker of winning 5 championships before he was tragically taken away from us , he won races and was a champion in Group 7 sports cars, saloon cars, formula 2 , and american oval racing and all at the same time he was fighting for the world championship and we hadn't even seen the best of him , likewise Graham Hill and numerous other drivers I could mention who IMO were as good or more talented than the skummaker Could go on forever with this , I suggest you do some reading about past great drivers and there history. because he was allowed to get away with his antics, win at all costs is now accepted as the norm. Piquet was banned for crashing on purpose, others have been unfarely penalised when he gets away with it , if they had been driving a red car it would have been smoothed over . Ive seen and met in person many truly great champions and drivers and i'm sorry but the kraut doesnt rate as one of them . Please dont waste any more of your breath banging on about the guy because you wont change my opinion of him This once great sport is slowly but surely turning into a very expensive side show. Quote
Asterix Posted April 6, 2010 Posted April 6, 2010 Dull race. They need to get rid of the dirty air behind the car without causing the cars to lift off on the straight. Quote
Carl Posted April 7, 2010 Posted April 7, 2010 I think Shoemaker is the best driver of recent times, the problem is he is typically Germanic and a bit removed, thus people can't "warm" to him. Senna has some Latin flair so when he purposely ramed Prost of the road he was seem a passionate (and not a cheat) Quote
pistonbroke Posted April 7, 2010 Posted April 7, 2010 a moment to remember the greatest driver ever , Jimmy Clark who died 42 years ago today Quote
Blatman Posted April 7, 2010 Posted April 7, 2010 I see - don't you think the sport was just as dangerous in the Prost/Senna era considering it actually killed one of them? No-one ever remembers Roland Ratzenberger who died the same weekend as Senna during qualifying. Seriously, I value your opinion, but there's a line and a racist comment like that aint good! Er, Bernie was passing comment on a single German, not ALL Germans. Your judgement clearly is clouded, despite your claims it isn't. Me thinks he doth protesteth too much... And you bite far too easily Quote
Fangio2 Posted April 7, 2010 Posted April 7, 2010 Interestingly of the 111 F1 driver records on Wikipedia not one solitary top spot is occupied by Fangio which proves to me that you simply cannot compare a modern F1 driver with one of the fossils - it doesn't work. A man once said "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You can't take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison." That was said by the guy with the most driver records about a driver who has none. Now steady on, lets take a small detour for a moment. Fangio (the fossil) was World Champion 5 times, at a time when if you drove like Schuey exploiting safety features you died - many many did. Treat the name with respect please and don't even put the two names in the same post. Thanks Offended of West Wickham A confirmed fossil Quote
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