Can you ever see a time.. (discussion)

[nikpro]

I'm sure virtually everybody can quote an accident where they think there was no fault on behalf of one driver and this is why statistics show that you are twice as likely to have a further accident in the next 12 months as your driving will not improve in the slightest.

Thes are not my words but words of proffesionals.

Men hate to be criticised about two things in life - there performance in bed and their performance behind the wheel. I would wager a bet that most people on this forum thinks their driving is above average - statistically this can not be correct  

[Blatman]

I would wager a bet that most people on this forum thinks their driving is above average - statistically this can not be correct

It could be. The drivers who frequent this board are but a small proportion of all the drivers out there. It is entirely possible, statistically, for us all to be above average when compared with the whole UK driving public.

[Boomy]

I would not wish to comment on each idividual accident but there is always some element of fault no matter how slight or some evasive action that could be taken to maybe help prevent that accident occuring and it is the thought that there was nothing I could do which stops driving improving.

Using the example you have given - when you stop at lights you should leave a bigger gap between yourself and the next vehicle so if a car approaches from behind you can move foward and repeatedly press the brake pedal - a flashing brake light attracts far more attention than especially none or even a solid red light and sound the horn as well.

The last time my car got hit, i was in a chinese restaurant at a table eating.

I feel about as much to blame for that as i would if i was hit at a set of traffic lights etc.

I mean, at a set of lights, you are suggesting people should concentrate on the approaching vehicles behind them.Then, by judging perfectly and accurately the speed, intention and concentration levels of the approaching driver and vehicle, they should start to move forward (possibly at high speed due to needing to react quickly) while flashing their break lights and sounding their horn.This way they can truly claim to be blameless?.

Also would this then mean that the car in front of you would need to do exactly the same as you now approach him quite quickly, closing the gap you left in the first place?.

Sorry, but that whole idea is just daft.I appreciate people who assume they are blameless may of contributed in some way by being positioned incorrectly or not leaving enough room on motorways etc, but like me in the restaurant, the only way i could of avoided that situation is to of walked 12 miles to the place.I assume that is what the "professionals" would of suggested for me to be blameless?.

Isn't that logic a bit like saying you were partly to blame for being shot and killed in a bank raid because you didn't buy that bullet proof vest you always promised yourself?.

[Hammy]

Crystal ball time again & Devils advocating..

The government introduced tacho-graphs for trucks and speed limiters on coaches very easily and there is a move to make speeding as unsociable as drink/driving. Pier pressure/fashion may then make people move away from fast cars anyway as being socially and environmentally bad. How about tacho graphs on cars, technology has moved on from paper, you would only need a simple logger mounted under the bonnet looking at the ground passing under the car (radar) to calculate your speed details and maybe a GPS to tell the unit you are in a speed restricted area. This could be interrogated by a passing fuzz vehicle via radio.   People would probably then opt for a connection to the ECU to limit their speed anyway. Anyone driving "fast" would then stick out like a sore thumb and be castigated as an evil bad person.

The technology is there. Digital cameras will soon have GPS built in (there is already a space in the image file header for it) so that you know where a picture was taken. Mobile phones in Japan will soon have GPS built in for enhanced features (text messages for local adverts and to allow you to find the local shops etc).

[Blatman]

I mean, at a set of lights, you are suggesting people should concentrate on the approaching vehicles behind them.

Why not? I do when I'm on the bike or in the Westfield. People *regularly* don't see a bike that has stopped, even when I have my hand on the brake lever to keep the brake light illuminated. Same goes for being last in the queue at a traffic jam or other unexpected stoppage. I have avoided around a half a dozen rear end shunts happening to me over the years because I watch my mirrors in such situations. The scariest one was when I was on my bike sat at a zebra crossing in Brixton. I saw a car approaching who clearly hadn't seen me or the pedestrian. So I pulled to the left and watched him hit the person I was allowing to cross, despite me shouting a warning to her. She got away with it, just, he didn't.

So yeah, watch your mirrors, even when stationary...

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I already said that I agree that blame is usually apportionable to both parties (just not always) but that's different from being aware and prudent. I was stationary at the eastbound lights at the Naked Lady junction of the North Circular and the A1 back in the eighties when a I had an automatic Granada. It was wet and I was on the front rank. In the mirror I spotted a builders' type Ford pickup truck slithering towards me all locked up, steam from the tyres, that sort of thing. Fortunately, that junction has loads of free space in the no-man's zone and I was able to floor it briefly and move a couple of car's lengths forward and watch the pickup stop exactly where I had been a second earlier. That was luck, observation, rapid reaction, whatever. But I would certainly NOT have regarded myself as being in any way to blame had I not seen the truck and done what I did.

The incident that confirmed to me the wisdom of driving on dipped headlights in the Westfield at all times illustrates what I would consider to be a potentially split blame situation. One of my regular blatting circuits involves approaching the A40 northwards from Watlington in Oxfordshire and joining at the foot of the Chiltern escarpment. This is not at the M40 but at the foot of Aston Hill on the old A40 London-Oxford trunk road. The twisty single carriageway blast up through the beechwoods on Aston Hill is worth a long drive just for the experience. However, continuing at warp speed at the top of the hill where it emerges from the woods takes you to a cross roads at Christmas Common. I saw the small family saloon waiting on the left and realised that he may not have seen this small, dark green roller skate hurtling out of the gloom at him (albeit on dips) and he might just pull out. He did. Fortunately I had already dropped back to subsonic speeds and he passed across my bows safely. Had I not backed off he would have been technically to blame for the collision, but I would have been partly to blame as well.

[nikpro]

Why not? I do when I'm on the bike or in the Westfield. People *regularly* don't see a bike that has stopped, even when I have my hand on the brake lever to keep the brake light illuminated. Same goes for being last in the queue at a traffic jam or other unexpected stoppage. I have avoided around a half a dozen rear end shunts happening to me over the years because I watch my mirrors in such situations. The scariest one was when I was on my bike sat at a zebra crossing in Brixton. I saw a car approaching who clearly hadn't seen me or the pedestrian. So I pulled to the left and watched him hit the person I was allowing to cross, despite me shouting a warning to her. She got away with it, just, he didn't.

So yeah, watch your mirrors, even when stationary...

Correct answer; and it has obviuosly served you well.

You should never have the vehicle in nuetral whilst stationary but should always have it in gear ready to move.

In a Westie I'm particularly aware of vehicles approaching from behind as the car is so low and the brake lights are not at eye level.

The 'professionals', Slippy, may have suggested that you look at where you park your car; and in this case it would not be classed as an accident between two or more people.

Being a good driver on a track is completely different to driving on the road. Being good on a track is the ability to handle a car on the limit and having quick reactions; It's all about 'feel' for what the car is doing.

On the road it is all about observation and scanning the horizon; including your mirrors constantly and identifying potential hazzards. Your observation skills should put you in a position where you never have to controll the car on the limit.

(I aint that good at either so these are definately not my words)

[Blatman]

I was stationary at the eastbound lights at the Naked Lady junction of the North Circular and the A1

Henleys Corner Just 5 minutes from my home. Pulling forwards now would set the Gatso traffic light camera off...

[timd]

You should never have the vehicle in nuetral whilst stationary but should always have it in gear ready to move.

I can think of several advanced driving instructors who would disagree with that statement. Rightly or wrongly, they wanted the car in neutral and the handbrake on when stopped at lights.

EDIT: PS. The reasoning behind this was that if you got hit from behind you would move forwards less distance and cause fewer knock-on problems..

[MAT1800]

Defensive Driving is IMO very important, although perhaps some of the suggestions are a little OTT.

I was going around a round about this morning, when some T*sser decided I should have taken the last exit and just pulled out in front of me, I managed to stop in time, and avoided him, I'm not sure he even noticed what had happened.  

So I agree you should always expect people to pull out infront of you, or undertake etc etc. And try to drive acordingly, that way if they do you are ready. I have always driven expecting other drivers to do stupid things, as they often do and have only had one minor bump in over 15years of driving, although I had been close (although not my fault...) many times!

Mat.

[Boomy]

I mean, at a set of lights, you are suggesting people should concentrate on the approaching vehicles behind them.

Why not? I do when I'm on the bike or in the Westfield.

I do too in any vehicle, especially on sudden stop motorway situations.In fact the very second i know nothing is moving in front of me, i will be looking in the mirror ready to switch lanes or move forward into the large gap i have left.Quoting just a part of what i said takes it a bit out of context though.

I was trying to point out that you would have no idea as you sat with your eyes glued to the rear view mirror at a set of lights whether the car approaching was just a boy racer Nova with new huge brakes (and will stop easily), or someone who was rummaging in the back seat and was about to smash into you.

At what point would you decide now would be a good time to move forward, beep your horn, flash your lights and dance the tango?.

It can't be compared to seeing a vehicle still doing 70 or 80 mph on a motorway 50 yards from your stationary rear bumper surely?.

[Blatman]

It's experience, and looking properly. Obviously at night it's difficult to see past the headlights, but during the day I can usually see the occupants face. If I can't, he ain't looking ahead...

If I can see the face, then like much on the road, it comes down to experience and judgement. It can't be taught, but there are clues to look for. Is the car dipping as if it's braking? Is there evidence of a gearchange? Can you see the drivers face? Can you see his hands on the wheel? Is he indicating or otherwise signalling that he may have a problem?

And for me...

Have I left an escape route? Is there an escape route open to me if I brake/accelerate out of the way? How can I miniise the impact? Could I alert the muppet behind to the fact that I've stopped? Would a hand signal get his attention?

There are *lots* of little things you can do to try to alter the unfolding situation. The trouble is, most folk are not thinking like this when they drive, and many many thousands will have never even considered that there is anything they could do, even when it seems to be too late. I do, 'cos my survival depends on it, especially when I'm on the bike or in the Westfield.

[Boomy]

I agree with and practice all that you suggest, but i would never consider myself even remotely to blame if i was rear-ended by someone while i was parked or waiting at a zebra crossing.

Let's not forget many of these tales talk of what seem to be potential high speed impacts.That is not always the case at all and a 5mph impact would be a lot harder to anticipate than one at 30 mph+ where headlamps were dipping and tyres were smoking.

I guess (in an off topic kind of way) i just can't get my head around why some people believe even a tiny percentage of blame should be laid at the feet of someone sitting at a zebra crossing or red light when the village idiot crashes into them.

[Blatman]

I guess (in an off topic kind of way) i just can't get my head around why some people believe even a tiny percentage of blame should be laid at the feet of someone sitting at a zebra crossing or red light when the village idiot crashes into them.

Absolutely! If I were to be rear ended and then my insurers said that as a result I was a higher risk, I'd be asking some questions of them and their underwriters. I would certainly put them on notice that they may not get my future business if I could find a different insurance company who were more fair minded. And I'd point out that I'd be willing to pay more to be treated fairly, thereby removing the question of cost from the equation...

[Lurksalot]

The incident that confirmed to me the wisdom of driving on dipped headlights in the Westfield at all times illustrates what I would consider to be a potentially split blame situation. One of my regular blatting circuits involves approaching the A40 northwards from Watlington in Oxfordshire and joining at the foot of the Chiltern escarpment. This is not at the M40 but at the foot of Aston Hill on the old A40 London-Oxford trunk road. The twisty single carriageway blast up through the beechwoods on Aston Hill is worth a long drive just for the experience. However, continuing at warp speed at the top of the hill where it emerges from the woods takes you to a cross roads at Christmas Common. I saw the small family saloon waiting on the left and realised that he may not have seen this small, dark green roller skate hurtling out of the gloom at him (albeit on dips) and he might just pull out. He did. Fortunately I had already dropped back to subsonic speeds and he passed across my bows safely. Had I not backed off he would have been technically to blame for the collision, but I would have been partly to blame as well.

Dipped headlights every time both on by bike and the westy

I was watching eatsalot do some damp laps at ty croes in overcast conditions and in comparison to the tin tops he was practically invisible

Granted that racing green doesn't exactly stand out from the crowd, it's dipped headlights every time for me.