A sad reminder of how it can easily go wrong

[DickieB]

Personally, I wouldn't do it without gloves, and fireproof underwear, balaclava & socks.  Track day marshalls are never going to get to a fire as quickly as a raceday set of marshalls, nor be so keen to get close enough to put the fire out.

Personal views aside, you "must" put padding wherever a part of you might hit the roll cage.  Everyone thinks about their head.  You "must" remember your arms and especially elbows - and I speak from painful experience.

[conibear]

I hit fluid on a trackday, was like hitting ice. Nothing I could do to prevent the spin that followed, but I was lucky as it was an airfield

[leighc]

C'est la vie. It ain't good, but we all know the risks...

exactly.....

[Mrs Westy]

I know someone who just rolled their tintop on a road.  He had his hand out the window smoking a cigarette.  He now only has one useful hand, and many months of painful surgery on what remains of his other hand.  Even then it will never be much use.

[Blatman]

But without arm restraints, tin top or open top, that can happen. Yes it's *bad*, but I've seen plenty of *Havoc* type vids to know that in a medium or high speed roll/inversion, centrefugal force will extend arms away from the body easily enough to be exposed. Again, it a risk assesment for the individual to determine. I personally don't use arm restraints, *but* now I have a full cage, they are on the list of things that I really should consider very strongly...

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I know someone who just rolled their tintop on a road.  He had his hand out the window smoking a cigarette.  He now only has one useful hand, and many months of painful surgery on what remains of his other hand.  Even then it will never be much use.

Now that's a health risk of smoking that even HM Gov hadn't thought of!  

[Martin Keene]

IIRC his helmet was a Bell middle market type, not a £1000+ jobbie anyway

I didn't say it cost a £1000. I was merely using a grand as an example number, because it made the sums about a helmet that cost X, X times better than one that cost X.

[Martin Keene]

I know someone who just rolled their tintop on a road.  He had his hand out the window smoking a cigarette.  He now only has one useful hand, and many months of painful surgery on what remains of his other hand.  Even then it will never be much use.

Thats the point I was trying to make. We all drive much greater mileage's in tin tops than Westfields, and I personally believe there to be more danager driving a tin top on the road, than a Westfield on a trackday. After all, it's not supposed to be racing...

[Guest]

i disagree , your road going tintop is so much safer its untrue , the safety ratings gained buy most middle market tin tops these days is huge compared to a westy .

As soon as you go on track you up the odds of something going wrong hugely , on your basis track insurance would be cheap ,its not and theres a very good reason for it.

[Martin Keene]

The tintop might be safer, but what about all of the nutters of there who haven't got a clue what they are doing?

Most people on a trackday would be what I class as an above average driver. I would take due care with those around them. Most of the people you meet on the roads these days are concentrating so hard on driving the car, they wouldn't know there was anyone around them, leave alone take due care...

Getting back on track, before I diverted th conversation of track with tin tops. You said:

You make your own choices as everyone has a different budget but safety will always come under the rule that says the best you can afford and if you can't then don't take the risk .

I have bought what I consider to be a safe helmet, at a price I condsider I can justify.

[Blatman]

I do have one other comment to make regarding the incident, for the sake of discussion...

Jackal was on a slowing down lap. Fair enough.

Spa is a long enough lap that he doesn't need to slow down until well after Eau Rouge, so gunning it up the hill is his choice. BUT, was it wise for him to be on the "racing" line at between 70 and 100mph at that point of the track? Harv has already said that his avoidance was more instinct than skill, but was clearly unsighted. The Honda looked to be travelling at least as fast as Harv, and would have been equally unsighted.

So, the question is, did Jackal gun it 'cos he was trying to get out of the way having seen Harv and the Honda in his mirrors, or was he just enjoying Eau Rouge at a more sedate pace? Both is fine, but maybe it would be better that people on slowing down laps move well off the "racing" line, especially where the track layout causes large areas of high speed track to be blind to a fast approaching driver. Even without the coolant on track, a car coming across a second car with a speed differential of potentially 30 to 50mph on a blind crest is not good and it is conceivable that an accident may have ensued regardless.

I imagine a guideline that requests of cars on a slowing down lap that they move "off line" may help avoid incidents regardless of the cause, especially on an open pit lane day when there are few other visual clues as to who is doing what, 'cos I bet the marshals aren't looking for white flag type issues...

[neilb]

your road going tintop is so much safer its untrue

I don't think that they are, what you have to consider is that tintops are now designed to try and protect the passenger compartment, but wind the clock back a couple of years and they fold up like a tin can (I wouldn't like to swap the Honda for your 205 in this accident), they don't have standards for rear or roll over protection and 4x4's generally don't have to meet any of the standards.  The design of the Westfield maybe old but chassis seems to handle accidents fairly well, I have see a few that look badly bent but the people involved have been able to get out and walk away.

I am not convinced that fitting a roll cage to a westy or any other open top car is a good idea, they slow you getting out of the car, put your head next to a solid piece of steel and obscure your vision, you don’t get cages on F1, LM cars or any other open top race cars I can think of.

I don’t mean to be controversial but there are pro’s and con’s to everything

[Blatman]

If you have a cage then you fit the proper FIA padding, and you mitigate the risk of fire/slow egress by having a plumbed in extinguisher. Both those items, along with arm restraints are on my shopping list now that my track car has a cage. And I'd much rather roll my track car now that it has a cage than I would my Mondeo. However, the same question with just an RAC bar would provide the opposite answer.

F1 and LM cars are designed from the outset to have driver safety by having crash boxes built in, as well as very strong roll over structures. That said, even LM Porsches etc have steel cages, 'cos that is currently the *only* way to optimise the safety of a production based car. Comparing LMP and F1/F3000 cars etc to a Westfield when safety is the criteria being examined is a pointless proposition, IMO.

[neilb]

Comparing LMP and F1/F3000 cars etc to a Westfield when safety is the criteria being examined is a pointless proposition, IMO

You miss the point - the point is that it's designed as an open top car, like formula ford, mini lights right up to F1 and LM the chassis has the strength built into it. They might be old designs but that does not make them that much worse.

said, even LM Porsches etc have steel cages, 'cos that is currently the *only* way to optimise the safety of a production based car

What you are doing is stopping the standard shell folding and crushing because they are not design to land on their roof, not saying that westys are but then you are not shut into a westy either.

For a car to be safe you have an area around the passengers that will not deform and they can walk away form, that means in a tin top being able to open the doors, westy and f1 cars don't have doors to open so you don't need to worry about the roof crushing in a roll that's why they don't have to have cages to be safe in a roll.

[Guest]

ok i can tell you on that basis what i would rather do (the truth is neither) but for the sake of this discussion i would rather roll an uncaged GT3 rather than a westfield with an rac rollbar ?

if you look at my other thread you will see i was out in the GT3 RS that finished 7th in the ring 24hr .

over a lap he was lapping the same speed as the very quick 7's but in 2 places he could have been alot faster which were eau rouge and blancheman , both would potentially involved closin speeds in excess of 100 kph 2 years ago i was their and there was a GT2 race car 800bhp and in current race trim , the closing speed with him even on a single seater was huge , thats a very good reason why observation is critical and open pit lane days are not for the novice or reletively inexperienced driver.