Which event in history.

[chazpowerslide]

I have to agree with all James said about Belson, I did'nt sleep well for weeks after visiting.

I also felt a kind of hemmed in suffocating and drowning feeling whislt I was there which did'nt seem to leave me.

I did'nt notice the lack of flowers, birdsong and wildlife untill it was pointed out to me and then it was so obvious I was supprised I'd missed it but the thing that really got to me was the silence, it was so.....LOUD

I felt exactly the same when I went to Achwitz only more so, it's uncanny that flowers don't grow, the birds don't sing and there is a lack of wildlife inside the compound there too.

We went into the "showers", there were about 10 people with us and every one looked as terrified as I was, but somehow it seemed nobody could not leave straight away, you had an overwhelming feeling that you wanted to stay for a bit.

I felt overpowered by it all, unable to comprehend the sheer scale of the suffering, brutality, inhumanity and waste.

I'd recommend a visit to either Belson or Achwitz if you need a bit of a reality (humanity) check.

Chaz.

[neilwillis]

Yup, been to Belsen too, it was eerie to say the least, and the scale of it was beyond comprehension.   A mound of earth with a small plaque on it stating 2,500 buried at this spot -  followed by more and more with ever increasing numbers.   The camp contained what would pass as a fair sized city these days - how could that happen?

My point in history would be on the flight deck of the French Concorde that crashed - I'd suggest they check their tyres before they depart.   It might still be flying today then

Or maybe at the radar station at Pearl Harbour - were those guys dumb or what!

Or perhaps airport security at JFK on 9/11/01.

Of course, the greatest one liner in history would have to be telling the Norman archers in 1066 to be careful or they'd have somebody's eye out!

[James]

We don't *know* the *full* circumstances though. I'm not meaning to belittle the point, but we don't.

He was apparantly a pretty normal bombardier, so one must assume that any other bombadier in the same position at the same time would do the same thing and drop the bomb. My question is, what about the bombadier who dropped the bomb on Nagasaki? He had to have known better what the likely outcome would be, and he still did it...

Both are braver than me, whatever the situation...

Brave or week?

its very easy to use the line "I was under orders" to justify your actions almost as if blame is something tangable that you can hand to someone else im not denying that the crews in both cases may not have been told all the facts of there mission.

but my point is this being under orders may cover your back  when your in the millitary but it dosnt cover your consonance when your a civillian

if I had pulled the trigger Im not sure I could have lived with the conequences

[Blatman]

its very easy to use the line "I was under orders" to justify your actions almost as if blame is something tangable that you can hand to someone else im not denying that the crews in both cases may not have been told all the facts of there mission.

but my point is this being under orders may

You missed the point then.

I *specifically didn't* use the "I was only obeying orders" gambit because it's insulting to just about everyone. It's patently NOT just about obeying orders...

[James]

its very easy to use the line "I was under orders" to justify your actions almost as if blame is something tangable that you can hand to someone else im not denying that the crews in both cases may not have been told all the facts of there mission.

but my point is this being under orders may

You missed the point then.

I *specifically didn't* use the "I was only obeying orders" gambit because it's insulting to just about everyone. It's patently NOT just about obeying orders...

I wasnt infering that you did say they were obeying orders but it did of course come down to this i agree the situation was larger than"obeying orders" but did they know that at the time was the crew kept in the dark about hiroshama?

It would be a tough call for anyone I dont think I would have done it but it was a diffrent time you never really know untill your in the situation. What would be an iteresting question is would you drop it if you knew the destruction you were about to cause?

[Blatman]

You can't base that sort of decision on what the immediate outcome would be though, which is what we're saying. I'm fairly sure thay had an idea that this was a *big* bomb, but as has been said, if the pilots and crew believed that the benefits would outweigh the negatives, then you drop it.

We *all* make that sort of decision every day (not life or death, but do one thing rather than another because the benefits outweigh the negatives), so it's a question of scale. That sounds harsh, but I guess that if I wanted to protect my sanity like they did, then then you need to rationalise it to yourself first, and deal with the aftermath as it happens. I think that's basic human nature, part of the human psychological condition, and it's what enables people to take either heroic or horrific actions. Those actions are judged by the public, and it depends entirely on which section of the public you are as to wether it's heroic or horrific. I'm sure that some Japanese feel that the Enola Gay crew were no better than Hitler and are mass murderers to a man, but we judge them a little differently because they were on our side so we spend time worrying more about the morals, rather than 2nd and third generation birth deformities caused by nuclear poisoning in a small town in Japan...

[peterg]

On the bridge of the Titanic so I could tell Captain Smith that he should steer a more southerly course as there were icebergs about    

[Nick M]

It would be a tough call for anyone I dont think I would have done it but it was a diffrent time you never really know untill your in the situation. What would be an iteresting question is would you drop it if you knew the destruction you were about to cause?

See my post above.  What if they *wanted* to drop the bomb on Japan, even knowing what the consequences would be....

I think there's also an argument for saying they were no different to any other bomber crew tasked with bombing what were ostensibly civilian targets.  The crews who bombed German cities for example.  They would have known, perhaps more intimately having seen the destruction of cities in the UK, what would happen when they unloaded tonnes of bombs and incendiary devices onto a German city....

If you have never fought in a war then I suspect it's impossible to know what it feels like to have an enemy which you absolutely want to defeat, potentially at all costs.

Personally I thank my lucky stars that there were men and women around 60 years ago who felt it important to fight and to make difficult decisions such as whether to drop a nuclear bomb on civilians.

[JonnyBoy]

on a lighter note..

i'd liked to have been there when Britney lost her viginity

[SteveRST]

...three's a crowd. Never mind, you didn't miss too much, I've had better.  

[Mat Jackson]

Thats brought it back to the normal level!!!!

[felters]

...three's a crowd. Never mind, you didn't miss too much, I've had better.  

What a coincidence. She said the same thing...

[James]

It would be a tough call for anyone I dont think I would have done it but it was a diffrent time you never really know untill your in the situation. What would be an iteresting question is would you drop it if you knew the destruction you were about to cause?

See my post above.  What if they *wanted* to drop the bomb on Japan, even knowing what the consequences would be....

I think there's also an argument for saying they were no different to any other bomber crew tasked with bombing what were ostensibly civilian targets.  The crews who bombed German cities for example.  They would have known, perhaps more intimately having seen the destruction of cities in the UK, what would happen when they unloaded tonnes of bombs and incendiary devices onto a German city....

If you have never fought in a war then I suspect it's impossible to know what it feels like to have an enemy which you absolutely want to defeat, potentially at all costs.

Personally I thank my lucky stars that there were men and women around 60 years ago who felt it important to fight and to make difficult decisions such as whether to drop a nuclear bomb on civilians.

Nick your spot on nobody really knows until its you having to make the desision and your right I thank my stars these people fought so I wouldent have to I think the only difficult part is if the crew knew what destruction it would cause even know would they want to go back and change history?

[Nick M]

I think the only difficult part is if the crew knew what destruction it would cause even know would they want to go back and change history?

In that respect I don't suppose they're that different from a lot of other bomber crews.  It's not hard to imagine, for example, the effect of dropping incendiary devices onto German cities with building utilising a fair amount of wood in their construction....

PS a little bit of punctuation goes a long way to making posts *much* easier to read

[DickieB]

After 6 years of total war and millions killed, I don't think you would have had to select the crew.  Most if not all would probably have volunteered, knowing that it was highly likely to end the war - a war that we had not started.