geofff Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Hi, I bought the Westfield option of rose jointed front end. And it's only the top wishbone. Now if I have a coming together the bottom wishbone is still going to give the chassis a good rip, correct? Or do the brackets tend to rip off rather than the chassis twisting? Anyone experienced in this area? Also no top rose joint connection to upright in my kit as far as I can see. I've put in an email to the factory but no response yet. From the photo's I took at Silversone people seem to be using the same rose joint as connects the wishbone to the chassis. Would anyone be able to confirm this? Also insert in the upright to make it non taper fit? Does anyone ever play with the camber and castor setting? Or is it a fit, set up and forget job? Any help would be gratefully received Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Normally a rose jointed factory suspension would have 4 rose joints at the inner end. Personnaly though I doubt these would have much beneficial effect as to preventing chassis dammage in an acident. top wishbone end rose joint should be high angle. normally leave the caster but change camber to suit tyres etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Also no top rose joint connection to upright in my kit as far as I can see. I've put in an email to the factory but no response yet. From the photo's I took at Silversone people seem to be using the same rose joint as connects the wishbone to the chassis. Would anyone be able to confirm this? Also insert in the upright to make it non taper fit? Is it the same thread as for the inboard end ? If so then yes, you need a high angle rose joint and an insert to make it non-tapered. Also some big washers in case the rose-joint fails - the washer will keep the joint roughly in place and won't allow the outer bit to pop up off the bearing in the middle and allow the upright to fall over. BUT, if it's a larger thread then it's just threaded for a normal ball joint that everybody uses (the Transit drag link type of ball joint) which is how I specced mine. I then had coarse and fine adjustments for camber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.S.M Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Agree with Ade. Depending on what 'incident' we talking about, anything other than a load in the wishbone travel direction will damage the spherical bearing. Bear in mind that 20% of these are damged on assembly (worth taking care) to prevent premature failure. The shear stress concentration will be higher in a rose joint (spherical bearing) rather than standard bushes and sleeves because of the contact area between the mounting bracket and the bolt. They do however provide a more accurate mounting with less play, but conversly are more expensive to replace when the 'inevitable' racing incident occurs. edit: as Nick says always use large washers also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickieB Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Geoff In my experience (and I have rather a lot of this unfortunately), the severity of accident goes along like this: 1. Wishbone only bends 2. Wishbone and bracket bend 3. Wishbone, bracket and chassis bend In my experience: 1 is a fair old accident (glancing blow at slowish speed on crash barrier) 2 is a real accident (glancing blow by another car at 60 mph) 3 is a heavy accident (crash barrier leapt out at me at speed) Not to worry, no-one was injured in the making of this post! Dickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geofff Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi, I'll double check the thread size on the connection to the upright from the wishbone. I have heard that some wishbones (top & bottom) are all rose jointed but maybe this is an 'old' option from Westfield that is no longer available because I could not see any in the paddock at Silverstone. The BARC rules don't allow me to run non proprietory suspension - my rule interpretation, correct I hope. High angle rose joint? The thread of the rose joint goes off at an angle less than 180 degrees? Anyone have a good supplier of rose joints and the taper bits? Lots of wide washers. Okay no problem there. And by the sounds of it (Dickie) I can expect the rose joints / chassis to bend like my karts used to. Thanks Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 The thread of the rose joint goes off at an angle less than 180 degrees? No, the ball end needs to be high angle, otherwise it'll "neck out" on the bolt/big washers under suspension movement, and break. I'm not sure what amount of movement a standard rose joint can manage, but for a joint that's replacing the upper ball joint, it ain't enough.... High angle rose joints are are expensive for what they are........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geofff Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi, Okay, so the rose joint needs to rotate a lot - I get it. I can probably source from Merlin at Coombe. Ta Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 Or ABC Autosport Bearings Ask for Graham Kemp John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul@Plays-Kool Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Geoff The long & short of this is, you'll have to run a 1/2" x 7/16" rosejoint, which will NOT fail before the chassis bends. If everyone else in the BARC series uses rose joints, then fit them as they do make a slight difference, but if not, they are costly especially if you knock corners off. Can you go to wide track front suspension? (Should be a factory option) this is worth fitting. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geofff Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 Hi, Not everyone uses rose joints in the series from the photo's I've taken. My main thought was for accident damage rather than mega accurate location. Before I spend any more money with Westfield I'll run the wishbones I have - my planned completion is August anyway. Racing next year. I will see if I can 'map' the wishbone orientation through roll and see what happens to the upright. After one discussion I've had I would expect it to move a little. Is this the reasoning behind the wider track suspension? Ta Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Scarfe Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Interesting thread. Here are a couple of my comments if you are interested. If everyone else in the BARC series uses rose joints, then fit them as they do make a slight difference Yes it is worth fitting them. I am amazed that more people in the series don't do this. It is better for stiffness of the suspension location and also because you can adjust to +- 1/2 a turn rather than a full turn for the normal ball joint. You can also adjust the castor if you have inboard rose joints as well. You are correct in your comment that you must buy the bits from Westfield. So if they make (or made it in the past) you can use it. This then leads on to: Can you go to wide track front suspension? (Should be a factory option) this is worth fitting. I guess so but no one in the series uses this. I am not sure about the wide track at all. I have heard about it but never tried it or know anyone who has. I know there is a kit of bits you can get from other suppliers (SBD I think) which moves the pick up points. This would be a big no no in the series but as the wide track stuff was supplied by Westfield then I don't see why you can’t use it. The high angled rose joint that I use for the outboard top is an aurora part HXAM-7T. You need to check that the thread in your outboard wishbone is 1/2" because you can get them from the factory with inner rose joints and either an outer ball joint or Rose joint. I assume these have different threads. There is an Aurora catalogue here: http://www.rotaprecision.com/ See page 61. As someone said these are 'kin expensive. You also need these on the steering arms if you are rose jointing these. I got mine from ‘Racers Hardware’ I don’t have any contact details for these tho, can’t even find a web site. HTH. Keith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geofff Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 Hi Keith, Just got onto the factory and they will swop out my wishbones for rose jointed inner and outer. I'll get onto rotaprecision for the rose joint.Thanks. They are checking to see if they can send me the semi-wide or wide versions. Definitelty the former not sure on the latter. Ta Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Scarfe Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 They are checking to see if they can send me the semi-wide or wide versions. Definitely the former not sure on the latter. Do check that these are ok to run in the race series won't you, they do check stuff like this and you might need written proof (From Richard Smith) that they are eligible since they will probably look different to everyone else’s. My lower fronts are a bit unique and I have had to get Richard to verify they were supplied by the factory to the BARC scrutineers. Also don't forget if you have a different track size for the top then the bottom must also be the same otherwise you might have a problem setting your camber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Scarfe Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Just found this: Racers hardware 01733 211311 I am not 100% sure it is the same lot I use but the name gives it away. They are defo the cheapest for rod ends that I have found. Unless you (ore anyone else) knows different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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