Fibre Broadband change. Worth changing???

[Stuart]

6 hours ago, TableLeg said:

Thanks Blatman,

 

I get that the infrastructure is BT hence why I pointed out I can only use an ISP using BT services.

 

The thing is I have discussed with IPSs on many many occasions about the speed and they tell me I cannot get more that 40Mbps on my line and yet for years I've had 55Mbps. Somebody somewhere has again tampered with my settings as I've been knocked back down to 40Mbps. This happens occasionally and a call to Plusnet they end up telling someone has made changes to the settings. They say they'll revert them and day later I'm back to 55Mbps. 

To add insult to injury we have a 2nd Fibre 'business' line in the same BT cable to the home (1 pair for each connection) and this runs at 63Mbps and has dropped out about twice in 10 years.

 

TableLeg as I understand it there are 40/10 and 80/20 connections either in the exchange or the cabinet. So if you drop from 55 to 40 your connections may have been switched then Plusnet switch it back when you complain 

[TableLeg]

Just now, Stuart said:

 

TableLeg as I understand it there are 40/10 and 80/20 connections either in the exchange or the cabinet. So if you drop from 55 to 40 your connections may have been switched then Plusnet switch it back when you complain 

That's exactly what I suspect has happened and what has happened all the times previously. I'm growing tired of having to keep going through this though😖

[Blatman]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Plusnet acknowledge that there may be an infrastructure problem but can't get Openreach to sort it. 

 

Ask to escalate the issue. They won't do a thing unless they really are pressed and they have acknowledged a potential infrastructure issue. As you/me/we are barred from talking to Openreach directly I'd press the ISP and maybe copy in the ombudsman with the admission of an infrastructure issue. And remember, the squeakiest wheel gets the most grease  

[Blatman]

2 hours ago, TableLeg said:

That's exactly what I suspect has happened and what has happened all the times previously. I'm growing tired of having to keep going through this though😖

 

Same as for Stuart. Escalate...

[Blatman]

And something else with these escalations... try not to take no for an answer. I work in this field (internet/network engineer) and one of the things I learned VERY early on is that there are very few things that can't be done. Just 'cos I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done... yes of course I made rookie errors early on in this career... The same will apply to whoever is spoken to at the ISP. Just because they say it can't be done, it doesn't mean it actually can't be done!

Where there is an admission of an external issue on the BT/Openreach side ask them what they are prepared to do to compensate you until correct connectivity can be restored. This is where you can try to negotiate for a fair and reasonable reduction in cost. For example, if the speed is dropping by a similar amount (looks like 15Mb or so for Tableleg, that looks like a 30% fall in speed) so how about 30% off the cost of Broadband until it's fixed? That would be fair. If they say no, escalate again to a more senior manager. Try the same again. Loop in the ombudsman. Or if that goes nowhere maybe ask to cancel and get the retention team involved. They may have more power to make decisions and may listen to your complaint with a different goal in mind from the regular customer service team. 

Final key piece. In all these things you MUST be reasonable with requests/demands. If the issue should come before an independent adjudicator like a more senior manager or the Ombudsman one of the key parameters is a test of reasonable-ness. If you have been reasonable and patient and followed the complaints process then as the customer you are in a strong position and it is harder for the ISP to argue against that when they have an admission of a fault on their side. I had about 6 months of aggro with Vodafone a few years ago. I kept notes of phone calls and asked for the recording info so I could refer to it if needed (becuse our calls are recorded for training purposes...) I escalated all the way to the Vodafone "ombudsman" team and was granted 6 months free on my contract. Their offer was 1 month free which I suggested was unreasonable given the amount of time I had spent and level of incompetence (which they agreed) had been shown. They said "yeah but it's your time not work time". Yup, my free time. But as it is in such short supply and has high demand placed upon it, my free time "costs" more than my hourly work rate. Saying that personal free time is actually worth nothing in a negotiation is flawed thinking... So keep at it...

[cast iron]

23 hours ago, TableLeg said:

Vodafone is somebody who wasn't around in my area until recently. Are they any good in terms of speed and reliability?

 

put it this way at the end of every 2 years with a supplier we usually switch, i will be sticking with Vodaphone at this renewal

[McFrancis]

21 hours ago, TableLeg said:

Thanks for this. I've seen Shell come up in the comparison sites. Are they through BT equipment?

I've no idea if BT are involved, the router from them is just some generic box, I don't think it even has their branding on it.  I just switch the router WIFI off and connect the Google mesh straight onto it.

[Blatman]

3 hours ago, McFrancis said:

I've no idea if BT are involved, the router from them is just some generic box, I don't think it even has their branding on it.  I just switch the router WIFI off and connect the Google mesh straight onto it.

If the connection comes down the phone line then the external infrastructure belongs to Openreach.

Openreach was hived off from BT to appease the monopolies commission at the behest of OfCOM but in all practical senses (and IMNSHO) it's a distinction without a difference. 

 

If the connection is via co-ax in the premises then it's Virgin Media. The UK's cable TV network has a long and "interesting" history but the three main events were that the early 90's  it was operated by Telewest, which then sold to Cable and Wireless which in turn sold to Virgin, although there is MUCH more to it than that. 

 

Virgin will offer "fibre" broadband to any home with a phone line or in CATV cabled ares. The only difference is speed. A co-ax connection is usually faster than "normal" fibre internet down the phone line and Virgin ramp up the speed every so often to keep their customers interested. 

 

Openreach are currently trying to ensure as many homes as possible (I think 85% is the target) in the UK has an actual fibre all the way to the premises (so called FTP connections) and the government have recently agreed to fund some of that work to the tune of 5 billion quid, although as ever discussion (arguments) rumble on...

In some areas, new build roads and dwellings are being installed with fibre instead of copper at the outset and I am sure this will become the new norm.

 

If (like me) you are in an area where Hyperoptic have laid infrastructure then fibre to the premises is already available. However there are not many areas and Hyperoptic, in pursuit of high volume for minimal cap-ex are generally only cabling to blocks of flats once a level of interest has been reached. Hyperoptic are I believe the only FTP competitor to Openreach in urban areas. There is a company called Gigaclear who offer to connect rural communities with fibre but that's all I know of them...

Hyperoptic are currenty are the market leaders for domestic FTP connections. The Openreach roll-out will put paid to that in a few years and I predict that the Openreach monopoly will return.

 

https://www.broadband.co.uk/guides/ultrafast-and-hyperfast-broadband/

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/next-steps-in-governments-5-billion-gigabit-broadband-plan

[Glen_I]

On 15/04/2021 at 12:03, cast iron said:

we went Virgin when they fibred our street, probably the worst provider we ever used, weve gone back to vodaphone dial up, 10 times better

We have Virgin and (touch wood) never had a problem for the past 12 yrs or so (apart from crappy wifi in the router, but that's sorted with TP link mesh), I am based at home it seems now working alongside my wife and whilst the kids were at home with schooling it never missed a beat.

 

We pay for 100mb and get 110mb for best part off the day.

 

However Vodafone HQ is about 3 miles up the road and they're terrible, can't even get mobile signal in the garden let alone in the house.

 

Just goes to show, one person's experience can differ so much from the next which makes what should be simple decision so complicated🤔

[Stuart]

10 hours ago, Blatman said:

And something else with these escalations... try not to take no for an answer. I work in this field (internet/network engineer) and one of the things I learned VERY early on is that there are very few things that can't be done. Just 'cos I can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done... yes of course I made rookie errors early on in this career... The same will apply to whoever is spoken to at the ISP. Just because they say it can't be done, it doesn't mean it actually can't be done!

Where there is an admission of an external issue on the BT/Openreach side ask them what they are prepared to do to compensate you until correct connectivity can be restored. This is where you can try to negotiate for a fair and reasonable reduction in cost. For example, if the speed is dropping by a similar amount (looks like 15Mb or so for Tableleg, that looks like a 30% fall in speed) so how about 30% off the cost of Broadband until it's fixed? That would be fair. If they say no, escalate again to a more senior manager. Try the same again. Loop in the ombudsman. Or if that goes nowhere maybe ask to cancel and get the retention team involved. They may have more power to make decisions and may listen to your complaint with a different goal in mind from the regular customer service team. 

Final key piece. In all these things you MUST be reasonable with requests/demands. If the issue should come before an independent adjudicator like a more senior manager or the Ombudsman one of the key parameters is a test of reasonable-ness. If you have been reasonable and patient and followed the complaints process then as the customer you are in a strong position and it is harder for the ISP to argue against that when they have an admission of a fault on their side. I had about 6 months of aggro with Vodafone a few years ago. I kept notes of phone calls and asked for the recording info so I could refer to it if needed (becuse our calls are recorded for training purposes...) I escalated all the way to the Vodafone "ombudsman" team and was granted 6 months free on my contract. Their offer was 1 month free which I suggested was unreasonable given the amount of time I had spent and level of incompetence (which they agreed) had been shown. They said "yeah but it's your time not work time". Yup, my free time. But as it is in such short supply and has high demand placed upon it, my free time "costs" more than my hourly work rate. Saying that personal free time is actually worth nothing in a negotiation is flawed thinking... So keep at it...

 

Blatman my problem is that graph I posted is a fairly common one and everyone tells me I should expect a sync speed of 24 at this a km. I was instrumental in getting the fibre cabinet in our village and the lead in that team said 24 at 1km.  The chart says that, the engineers (several so far) say that and the speed estimates and MGSs from ISPs say that. I've even had them connect me to the 80/20 switch and it made no difference which they told me in advance it wouldn't due to distance. So I have no idea how you get 60mbps a km from the cabinet. Whilst my contact at Plusnet has said something like "they really should look at the infrastructure" it was off the cuff. I therefore expect I would just be told I'm doing OK at 27.4 when predicted is 24. So escalating ain't so easy

[Blatman]

12 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Blatman my problem is that graph I posted is a fairly common one and everyone tells me I should expect a sync speed of 24 at this a km. I was instrumental in getting the fibre cabinet in our village and the lead in that team said 24 at 1km.  The chart says that, the engineers (several so far) say that and the speed estimates and MGSs from ISPs say that. I've even had them connect me to the 80/20 switch and it made no difference which they told me in advance it wouldn't due to distance. So I have no idea how you get 60mbps a km from the cabinet. Whilst my contact at Plusnet has said something like "they really should look at the infrastructure" it was off the cuff. I therefore expect I would just be told I'm doing OK at 27.4 when predicted is 24. So escalating ain't so easy

 

Fairly common is OK but as with everything I am curious about it's provenance. I'm not arguing or saying it's wrong or anything like that but in my game, evidence is king and whilst the graph is evidence of a sort I always want to dig deeper.

The quick 'n' dirty calculations for my connection start with a speed test that I have just done and the below screenshot is a calculator that estimates line length for the connection. That calculator can be found here: https://www.speedguide.net/dsl_speed_calc.php

 

 

[Stuart]

Thanks. But that info seems to be saying you are getting d/l of 79.6 when you should be getting max 31.9?

 

This is my calculation. I am not 2km from the cabinet but 1.1. And my speed test result is 26 when the calculator says max 17.6. My attenuation much higher than yours. So something awry somewhere. 

 

@TableLeg sorry for the thread drift 

[Blatman]

My cabinet is 300 yards from my front door and is line-of-sight. The cable path however, goes around the back of my block and the houses to the east (it's easy to trace the path. Just follow the line of duct access covers in the pavement) so I find myself at the very end of the cable after it has gone past EVERY other house and block of flats between me and the cabinet. And where I live is quite densely populated.

 

The speed test I linked to is typical. It doesn't often drop much below high 60's / low 70's even during the pandemic with everyone home all the time and where demand has provably increased.  Further thoughts include the fact that the estate where Iive is less than 20 years old and the fibre cabinet less than 5 years old. As with anything, copper in the ground will deteriorate over the years so if your "last mile" ("last mile", irrespective of the actual distance, is the line between the cabinet the your dwelling) has been in the gound for a long time it could be showing high resistance which could throw off the calculator. One must also consider the resistance is based ona fixed cable gauge so a difference in either will throw the calculation off.

 At 1137 meters the calculation for my line does look a little long and of course it's based on a fixed number for resistance/attenuation/gauge as mentioned. I have not yet looked to see if I can ascertain the gauge of my copper pair...

So all measurement parameters must be considered but a physical trace of the path on foot and a Google maps session to measure the path would be a good way of starting to get an acurate picture of the actual cable pathway and therefore cable length. Once that piece of evidence is gathered one could begin to work on proving or disproving resistance/attenuation for a cable of that gauge/length and work backwards towards some more evidence based measurements.

 

And one more thing to ask, and it's going to be weird... does the speed drop when it has rained and the ground is wet? And is it worse still after heavy and/or prolonged rain?

[Stuart]

I can get the exact line length from some Openreach stats in my lengthy ticket threads with Plusnet. But from memory it is about 1.1km. And yes, it sometimes reduces the banding and hence the sync speed after lots of rain.  One time one of the engineers found a junction box up a pole full of water. Said he'd sorted it but who knows. Our cabinet is only 3 years old

[CraigHew]

I think what this thread shows is that an individual premises gets an individual speed governed by the local fibre and copper wire infrastructure.

 

I know of people who are close to an exchange and get poor speeds snd people further away who get better performance.

 

It is whst it is.

 

FFTP ( fibre to premises) will alwsys be the best option for speed and prices are falling however not every property has access to fibre cabling to their Street cab.

 

FFTC (fibre to cabinet) still relies on a copper wire connection from your local street csb to your premises.

 

As has been said no matter who the ISP is, the ultimate speed will be the same unless the infrastructure is upgraded.

 

For what its worth, ive been with talktalk for 15 years and had superb customer service when needed.