F1, penalty or no penalty? (Poss spoilers)

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Looks like they're planning to appeal but I didn't think they could?

 

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.ferrari-lodge-intention-to-appeal-vettel-penalty-decision.1V1njlRs4W2j3721CHpzsp.html

1 hour ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

A simple remedy for Sebastian would have been to pull a >5 seconds gap

 

Dont think either car would have been able to pull a 5 sec gap. It was <2secs the whole race. Although if LH was much faster as he claims he could have put all this controversy to bed and overtook SV before the end. But he didn't, he was happy to sit behind and then claim he didn't want to win that way.

 

Everyone who follows F1 wants close, hard, wheel to wheel racing. And to a degree the stewards  have let more go as 'racing incidents' this season, but think they've dropped a b*****k here. LH wasnt forced off track, his car wasnt damaged and he prob lost half a second by braking. Just let them race. Please.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

Actually Steve, I was being mischievous in suggesting that he should have pulled >5s ahead. Simply returning his belief in his superiority.

 

If LH had not braked and there had been a collision then SV would certainly have been condemned for causing a collision - there's a lot of precedents. Why should LH's swift action to avoid a collision give SV a 'Get out of Jail Free' card? Given the litigious nature of the modern world in which the most trivial transgression is punished (it's happened to Lewis often enough) it must be applied even-handedly. Lewis was forced off the track:

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Is that off track? Yes nearly over the white line but cars were out over the line brushing the walls all weekend with no penalty for exceeding limits. Drivers brake all the time to avoid collisions it's the nature of the sport. Even at the start of the race 2 cars sandwiched one of the alfa romeo cars and ripped off his wing absolutely ruining his race. No penalty for either, not even investigated as far as I saw. Grosjean went off after this incident and came back on track at a near 90 degree angle causing cars to swerve, no investigation, no penalty.

 

It says a lot that every ex driver on commentary and analysis said no penalty. Even Toto Wolff said he wouldn't be happy if that penalty was given against Mercedes. 

[Andy Malone - Editor]

It's certainly a bit marginal either way given the circumstances and part of the track it occurred at (there really isn't a lot of room there at 100mph).

 

From a rules perspective though... by the letter of the law after reading it, it does look like an unsafe return to the track. Do I agree with it? No, I think it's a silly decision.

 

I don't get the amount of uproar targeted from different camps at the drivers/teams. Lewis is totally entitled to ask the question (Seb would do - in fact has done - exactly the same), Mercedes are entitled to refer it to the stewards for review (Ferrari would also do exactly the same without a doubt). The entire sport is based around teams/drivers/engineers pushing to the limits of the rules to get any advantage they can and this is no different. Anyone that thinks the other side would do anything different if the tables were turned is mistaken.

 

At the end of the day the only people responsible are the stewards, and they made their call based on the FIA regulations. They are the things that need looking at as even though they have been allowed to declare more "racing incidents" of late, it still feels pretty rigid (even the appeals process for example). Personally I wish the panel of 5 experts at the track had carte blanche on rulings, with it legislated that the rules are there 'to guide their decision making' but not to enforce it. There is enough of them to work on a solid consensus, and it would allow them to consider the racing impact of marginal calls.

 

However... despite saying all this (and Seb's protestations) looking at the slow mo inside his car I do think it looks like he lets the car drift out a bit wider than it necessarily needed too to "regain control" which just happened to stop Lewis passing as well.

[TAFKARM]

The Germans usually beat us on Penalties.

[Andy Malone - Editor]

Also, as a side thought, what about being able to give place penalties as a viable penalty alternative to the 5 second time penalty (especially if they are likely not to stop again)?

 

For example in this they could have said to Seb that Lewis has forced the place, but then the race can continue at full beans with Seb fighting back (as soon as Lewis knew he had the penalty he gave it a cursory push but you could tell he wasn't going to send one so it sort of died off).

 

I think the same would have potentially been a better call in Monaco for the unsafe release of Verstappen's car. If Bottas had known the place could be rescinded he wouldn't have had to try and run alongside him and get the puncture which ruined his race, and then in the end he and Seb could just continue behind Max without pushing knowing they would get the leapfrog at the end with the 5 seconds. Not really a fair results for either Bottas or Max I don't think.

 

Just thinking out loud... I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it to be honest.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

I do think it should have been dealt with after the race as @Alfascozzesi says. They effectively killed off the duel everyone has been waiting to see all year. LH vs SV in even ish cars. 

 

Sort it after the race then both could put there sides forward, it would have avoided the damp squib ending, the race winner being booed and sebs strop (which I agree was very childish, although I found quite amusing)

[DonPeffers]

Do the Stewards look at telemetry such us G force of braking to avoid collision and sector times of the two cars to see who might have gained or lost?

 

I'm assuming if the Mercedes was in front and the Ferrari following when this type of incident occurred there would be no complaint from the following car driver or team?!

 

I always understood the rule to be that the car re-entering the track must do so safely and the excuse of being 'out of control' won't cut it.

 

From a racing point of view it would have been better if a very prompt decision came from the Stewards ordering Vettel to let Hamilton pass, then the racing continues.

[Onliest Smeg David]

20 minutes ago, DonPeffers said:

Do the Stewards look at telemetry such us G force of braking to avoid collision and sector times of the two cars to see who might have gained or lost?

 

I always understood the rule to be that the car re-entering the track must do so safely and the excuse of being 'out of control' won't cut it.

 

From a racing point of view it would have been better if a very prompt decision came from the Stewards ordering Vettel to let Hamilton pass, then the racing continues.

 

Agreed

 

Vettel made a mistake (as he often does now when racing wheel to wheel or under pressure) went totally off track and faced the consequences, which imo he should as I'm sure he could have given enough space for a cars width on the outside but his instinct was to block the pass. He did know Ham was right on his tail. But I do think the 5 second rule doesn't work in this circumstance and spoiled the racing.

[Blatman]

It says a lot that every ex driver on commentary and analysis said no penalty. Even Toto Wolff said he wouldn't be happy if that penalty was given against Mercedes.

Don't remember team principals being happy about any penalty against them, whether clearly justified or not.

 

To me Lewis forced the mistake which should have given him the lead. Vettel knew this and to me he did do a Schumacher. I agree that whilst he didn't seem to move across deliberately, he also didn't try to steer left to keep a slow car off the racing line. I think he had more control than he made out and he's desperate. His driving has been littered with errors for over a season now and he knows it. This was yet another mistake that, penalty or not, should justifiably have cost him the lead of the race at that time. 

[Captain Colonial]

Very good article on the BBC news website:

 

Clicky

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

4 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

Do the Stewards look at telemetry such us G force of braking to avoid collision and sector times of the two cars to see who might have gained or lost?

 

I'm assuming if the Mercedes was in front and the Ferrari following when this type of incident occurred there would be no complaint from the following car driver or team?!

 

I always understood the rule to be that the car re-entering the track must do so safely and the excuse of being 'out of control' won't cut it.

 

From a racing point of view it would have been better if a very prompt decision came from the Stewards ordering Vettel to let Hamilton pass, then the racing continues.

Yes they do and they have access to other information that we don't see. In this case when Vettel was back on tarmac and in a straight line he allowed the car to drift outwards to put the squeeze on Lewis, he knew he was there cos he checked his mirrors twice while regaining the track.

it does put a new perspective on it cos' I for one thought it spoilt the race.

Vettel has plenty of form for cracking under pressure and following it up with out of order moves.

[jeff oakley]

There are plenty of rules that I would get rid of in F1 and the unsafe return to track is open to interpretation. At racing speed Vettel probably had a split second to decide what to do and as such I would have given the benefit of doubt to him. 

 

We want racers who will race full stop and staying in front is a key thing. I have read a lot of ex formula one drivers who have disagreed with the stewards decision and very few for supporting it, because it ruined the race and if Hamilton had kept the pressure up Vettel would have made another mistake and the overtake would have been a better way to win.

I also disliked the way Hamilton wasn't man enough to admit he instigated the appeal as he was bleating on the radio straight away, he would have been better just getting on and driving leaving the botching to others.

 

On an aside, I would get rid of the Blue flags, it used to be great seeing calculating drivers using back markers to gain advantage.  

[pistonbroke]

No words needed here then !

[Andy Malone - Editor]

12 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

... he was bleating on the radio straight away, he would have been better just getting on and driving leaving the botching to others.

 

All the drivers do this all the time, it's just the TV director only picks out which juicy bits they want to broadcast.

 

On Ted's Notebook after the race he was explaining that the radio calls from both sides during this were entirely typical of most races (even in less contentious circumstances) and there was no excess complaining from either side until the decision came in when Vettel (understandably) lost it a bit.

 

I do agree Lewis was dodging the issue of him mentioning it in conversation with Seb before the podium, he should have just called it and said something like "Tough one. From my car it looked liked you blocked me, but it's the stewards call"