Completely off topic. Small claims court. legal advice.

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

A while back we purchased a new dining room floor,  we chose a retailer listed on the manufacturers website as a Gold Partner.

We visited their shop (small family owned business) and placed a verbal order for our chosen flooring, they said they would send a man round to measure up, show us some designs and work out a price. The man came round and introduced himself as .......from......... he said the existing floor would need a smoothing compound laying to ensure a smooth and level surface for the new floor, and worked out a price based on his survey, we agreed to this and fixed a date.

He came and laid the smoothing compound one day and the finished floor the next. all seemed well. He gave us a bill on headed notepaper that had a different name than the retailer, obviously they had used a subcontractor to lay the floor, this was the first time we were aware of this.

After a while we noticed that the floor was anything but smooth, sitting on the dining room chairs was like sitting on a rocking horse! I got my straight edge and level out and was shocked at my findings.

after a lot of phone calls, letters and a report from the manufacturer following an inspection that stated the floor had not been laid to their guidelines, we are now at the stage of going to the small claims court to resolve this situation.

So my question for any legal eagles out there is. Who do i name on the summons? The retailer we placed the order with? or the subcontractor he used?

I think it should be the retailer, he should be responsible for the quality of work carried out by his subcontractor. (who just happens to be his son)

Have any of you been in a similar situation? How did you resolve it?

We have no complaints with the quality of the floor finish. just the sub floor preparation.

 

[stephenh]

No argument, the retailer as your contract was with the retailer. 

[DonPeffers]

Small Claims Court will decide on the preponderance of the evidence submitted which just means that your story (backed up with some documentary proof) is more believable than the defendants.

Things could get messy if the shop you recognise as the main contractor deny ever accepting a contract from you (ie. nothing in writing) and the shop owner merely passed your details on to his son to get him work (ie. a referral but without any liability) but in the knowledge that he would be the main contractor hence this is where a written contract comes in, especially for the Court proof burden.

I would certainly complain strongly in writing to the floor manufacturer and suggest they might reconsider who they recommend to install their  products after this fiasco and if a satisfactory reply wasn't forthcoming a choice review would be posted to warn others. My view is that the floor supplier should be pressurising the shop to provide a remedy.

The retail shop was your first point of contact but that might not establish contractual proof of responsibility.

You believe your contract is with the shop and heard the subcontractor say he was from that retailer but how can that be proved to a standard a Court will accept when it is just verbal? As far as the Court is concerned you could simply have chosen an alternative, cheaper fitter.

I know this will be difficult and I am not trying to throw a spanner in the works but merely to alert you to possible defence that may arise especially if the shop/son have had problems before as they will be well-practised.  Are there any reviews under either company name online (I mean reviews on independent sites and NOT the company's own website of Facebook page)? Any adverse reviews while proving nothing might let you get an idea of what you are up against.

It appears legally that the paperwork (invoice you accepted) is from the party you call the subcontractor and therefore only a legal claim against him might succeed in Court.

Can you access free legal advice from a Trade Union of which you are a member or thru legal extension to home insurance cover?

Alternatively have a look at   https://www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice/individuals/bpp-legal-advice-clinic-manchester  possible free legal advice in your city.

Sorry to have rambled on and good luck.

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

Thanks Stephen that's what i thought 

Don, the manufacturer have been more than helpful, the inspection request could only come from the retailer and it took a lot of pressure from the manufacturer on the retailer to get them to do it.

After the inspection the report went to the retailer and he was supposed to send me a copy, that was never going to happen, eventually the manufacturer sent me a copy on behalf of the retailer.

During the many telephone calls i soon realised that it was my word against theirs so i resorted to text messages, i still have them on my phone and also copied to a safe place.

I'm not in any trade union (retired) citizens advice referred me to the that same link, i sent them all the details and they said it wasn't something they would advise on.

 i will have a look online to see if i can find any reviews.

Thanks for your ramblings 

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

Oh yeah the sub contractor did send me a text a while ago saying i should address all correspondence to him.

He also made a small offer to replace the materials, but he would not do the labour.. Is that an admission of fault?

I do have both of those texts saved.

[Terryathome]

You haven't said who you paid and what the invoice contained. Should you go along the line of the retailer who you first thought you had contracted the work to. Then they should have presented you with an invoice. Not the subcontractor as they are just that. If you paid the subcontractor for all materials and labour then you might be stuck with them.

[DonPeffers]

I would check  http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/  filling in all the boxes.

You will have the VAT no. for the alleged subcontractor on his invoice so the search above should bring up his company name and company address.

Is he working out of a shed behind his Dad's shop--ie. any address connection between the two companies?

Do internet searches provide the VAT no. for the retailer/shop and what does its VAT no. search show? If the shop VAT no. is not traced online then 'phone the shop and ask for it--they surely have nothing to hide, right?

It all sounds far too cosy with Dad (shop) sending round his son (unannounced subcontractor) and the shop walking away from the problem.

[DonPeffers]

1 hour ago, Paul Hurdsfield said:

Oh yeah the sub contractor did send me a text a while ago saying i should address all correspondence to him.

He also made a small offer to replace the materials, but he would not do the labour.. Is that an admission of fault?

I do have both of those texts saved.

Good to save all evidence and his offer to replace materials could potentially be construed as a part admission of liability.

 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Equally, the wording of the text will tell you whether he's used to making offers that do not prejudice any legal liability ruling.

[Blatman]

5 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

but how can that be proved to a standard a Court will accept when it is just verbal? As far as the Court is concerned you could simply have chosen an alternative, cheaper fitter.

County Court test is one of reasonable-ness rather than beyond reasonable doubt. 

I agree that close examination of the various names, addresses and written (text or whatever) information including invoices, brochures, websites and ANYTHING you can gather to support your reasonable understanding of what you were getting and which shows the retailer to be behaving unreasonably is the path to follow.

I also agree that your claim is against the retailer I had a similar issue with my sprint car (when it was still used on the road) where the sump was badly damaged by raised ironwork in some badly lit and unsigned road cold planing. I contacted the council who tried to pass me on to their subcontractor. My (successful) argument was that the roads are the councils responsibility from start to finish.

My final point is that there are often "incentives" to think about. For example you may say that if the floor is fixed to your satisfaction and within an acceptable timescale (say, 30 days) you will waive claiming your out of pocket expenses, whatever they may be. If they don't then the claim will include you out of pocket. This is reasonable and in fact generous and a County Court Judge would I hope look favourably on this.

[pistonbroke]

You could always get Margret to trip over said uneven floor and sue for injuries , plus damage to any properties she landed on ( TV Hi Fi etc.) 

A succesful claim would surely help your case in court 

[/ devious mode off ]   

 

[Paul T]

You could join which.co.uk legal advice, these guys have a very good reputation

https://legalservice.which.co.uk/

 

good luck 

[Rhett Turner - Black Country AO]

If you don't get it resolved and do go through the small claims court, make sure the amount is large enough to then be able to get bailiffs involved. I successfully took a claim through the process only to find that they totally ignored the outcome and as my claim was not large enough (somewhere just north of £500 ) there was then nothing more I could do. There seems to be a minimum amount before you can start to use debt recovery services. 

Good luck, I hope you get it sorted.

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

Thanks guys for all the helpful comments and links 

I have been following all the guidelines on the Citizens Advice service website as well as speaking to them.

I have ignored all the sub contractors communications and only addressed my letters to the retailer

All my letters have been sent recorded delivery (non of them answered) last week i sent the 'Final letter before court action' from a template on the CAB website stating what i expected from them and gave them 14 days to reply in writing, i don't expect an answer, so then it will be the Small claims court.

I will try and get down to court to see how it all works beforehand.

Fingers crossed 

[Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO]

19 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

I would check  http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/  filling in all the boxes.

He is working from his home address.

The retailer comes up as:- Company Registration No.: 06252195 Incorporation Date: 18 May 2007 (11 Years old) Financial Year End: 31 May Capital: £100.00 on 24 May 2017   Look at the capital, not very much there.