SpeedSeries event feedback

[Onliest Smeg David]

1 hour ago, Beez said:

.....

Prizes

Its great having TSL at some of the events who provide some great extra timing features like 0-64ft and Finish Line MPH. Maybe this information could be made use of and some recognition of "best launch" or "Heaviest Right Foot" awards?

Photos

A lot of amateur football clubs pay a photographer a set fee for the game, then all the players get "free" copies of the photos included as part of their subs. Maybe the same could be done at sprints, we wouldn't need them for the whole day as most people would be happy getting a couple of shots from just the timed runs since that's when they are really trying. The pictures should be included as part of the entry fee instead of having to pay another £15 on top.

@John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary 4 Blyton!

[graham frankland]

It is the Comp Secs/Organising Teams of each club who need to get their ducks in a row when writing their regs.

I do not know why some clubs only allow 2 timed runs and others like the WSCC have no limitation except time.

We as the SSOT need to learn from these instances and ensure that the clubs we are invited to and add to our calendar will allow and run as many timed runs as "time" allows (even though their club competition may only allow a specified number to count on the day)!

In the main each club needs each other to ensure each event is well attended and is not a financial disaster!

The solution is jointly in the hands of each club to ensure continued enjoyment and ultimate survival.

Glutey

 

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

update: the WSCC is affiliated to a group of clubs that meet in Knutsford (next village small world) and I'm due to see them in may and I will give this as feedback.

 

cheers

 

Panda

 

[XTR2Turbo]

For those that have done the Javelin events, how is that they offer more runs? 

Start earlier and finish later?  smaller field, slicker time keeping / start line operation, other?

[B.RAD]

All of the above, albeit entrants were about the same (more than MIRA though, for example). Scrutineering started at 7.10am but was available from the night before, briefing was at 8.40am and sighting laps started at 9am sharp. 

Common sense approach to runs & releasing cars made it very slick. 5 min delay between each round to download results & then straight back on with it. 2 sighting laps, 1 untimed practice run and 2 timed runs all completed by 12.30pm.

[AdamR]

Impressive. I always got the impression there was a lot of farting about at MSA events - I guess that proves it.

I've also done a half sprint, half trackday with MoT before - between 1:30 and 5 we got 7 runs! 'Only' 50 cars or so though.

 

[Lawrie]

I feel I ought to comment at length on this, as I’ve been on both sides of the fence.

I agree that sprints and hillclimbs do not appear to be value for money. All that for 5 minutes fun, whereas a trackday will give you hours for the same money.

A fair chunk of the entry fee goes to the venue fee, and the MSA fee and insurance.  Organising Clubs are not rich and risk their survival with each event.  Officials and Marshals provide their services for free.  The equipment costs have to be covered - the certified extinguishers, signs and red flags all cost money, and might only be used once a year.  These events take a load of organising – all of which is done for free.

As for the number of runs, this is usually defined by the regs.  I’ve probably broken a rule by making this flexible.  Firstly, it depends on the number of entries, so if it finishes at 3:00 pm, it’s probably short of entries and running at a loss.  Usually stoppages slow the event, and if the ambulance is needed, there can be over an hours delay.  Certain accidents result in a mandatory trip to hospital, and then they expect you to get a cab back.  I guessed 2 practice and 3 timed runs on the basis of a low entry, which worked, but more recently, a high entry event looked like heading for a 3rd timed run, but then there were a few stoppages.

The problems in organising these events are unbelievable.  The paperwork gets lost, and when it turns up, its for a slightly different event. Burger van cancels 3 days beforehand.  The portaloo man gets lost.  Nobody can find the extinguisher certificate. The new fully automatic timing system fails so its all worked out on cards and excel.

And to make it safer it’s becoming more complicated and expensive due to ongoing accidents in races and rallies.

There’s a shortage of venues, and a club has to be brave to try a new event.  Established events seem to make money, but not a lot.

We get there in the end, but its not as much fun as it used to be. 

Finally, this is the view from the south, and if you have to get up at 5:00 am, going home early isn't that daft.

[B.RAD]

All good points Lawrie and an interesting inside perspective. I agree that on occasion, I've wanted to skip off early as it's a long drive home, but only because the event has ended. If there were more runs, speaking personally, I'd be doing them.

All you say makes clear sense. I'm interested to know, in your informed view, how is it that an organiser operating outside the MSA regulations, can do the exact same thing but provide better value for money? Is it the MSA causing the issues or is Javelin just operating with a fresh approach?

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

From a boots on the ground at the start line perspective, (having done it at several tracks for a fair number of years), what slows things up, (in no particular order):

• slow feed of cars from paddock to start line queue.
• drivers not pulling forward to the line when requested, (some will try and hang back to check the live timing screens of the preceding cars, or are still adjusting things in the queue).
• Stopages.
• lack of info from Marshals radio group, and presumably vice versa. (Having start lined with a marshals radio group walkie talkie present and without, it does make quite a difference hearing the marshals post reports during stoppages, knowing that they're nearly ready to go means the start line can be preparing that bit earlier. Equally, knowing that they're only retrieving a cone, means we can keep a car positioned and ready to go immediately, whereas when we're having to radio back to find out what the delay is, you end up with drivers turning off engines, and cars rolling out of position etc, and needing re-staging.
• too great a performance differential between cars immediately in front of each other in the queues. This seemed to catch the timing people out repeatedly last year at Blyton, (not blaming them in any way, by the way), one of two things would happen, either a rerun would be called, as cars caught each other up, or cars would sometimes be held on the start line for longer than was perhaps strictly necessary to reduce the chance of a catch up situation.
• Timing gear issues. It happens occasionally.

[Lawrie]

I'd agree with all of that.

We have a "tough cookie" to get the cars to the start.  We try and park the cars in order, but they all want to go somewhere else.  The PA and marked spaces at Gurston makes it smooth.

Lack of experienced marshals can be a problem.  If there's a bigger event on the same day, you've had it.

I've no idea why the Javelin Series is cheaper.  The bulk of the cost for a MSA event is usually the venue fee and insurance, and the entry fee has to be budgeted on expected entry numbers.  Some events are full, and hence make money, and I've never understood why some are so popular.  Its difficult fishing for entries.  Some basic venues are expensive, but all we've got, and you end up with 20 bags of B&Q tarmac, mending the potholes.  Circuits are usually more expensive, but you'll save on some of the facilities.  Javelin appear to take a simpler/easier approach.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Could there be an element of "buying power" for Javelin when it comes to the circuit hire fee's?

[B.RAD]

Sorry, by value for money i mean the number of runs and the overall slickness of the operation rather than the cost, i think the Javelin price is in line with, or even slightly more expensive than MSA events (£140 for Blyton i think). But for that, you get more track time, hence being better value for money.  

I wonder if it's to do with the overall structure - for Javelin it's a business, they do it to make money & promote their trackdays, but as you say above the typical MSA events are run by volunteers, typically not for profit. For Javelin, we're customers who need to be satisfied, but it doesn't feel like that is the case at some of the MSA events. 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Ah sorry, I misunderstood.

with slick timing and efficient feeding in from the paddock, you can launch the cars at a fair old rate. I know, we've done it!

Even on a tricky rack like Curborough, where it was one on, one off, two of us on the start line, plus an efficient team feeding them into us for the paddock, we've got around 370 launches out before now. And that's with the usual moved cones and red flag stoppages.

[graham frankland]

As I think I have said before The Clubs run events under MSA rules. The clubs run the events not the MSA althought the scrutineers and clerk of the course are usually MSA approved.

Yes Javelin do have some buying power with the circuits as they use them in the week for their track days. In some instances however I know they have declined to use certain circuits on weekends because of the prices they charge. I think most clubs run their events on weekends and I guess they may pay somewhat more.

I guess Javelin use all their own staff to run their events which might contribute to tighter and more slicker organisation on the day.

I see it that Javelin are setting different standards which each club should take notice of and smarten up their act in response. Without some more analysis I am not sure if Javelin are playing by the same rules as the MSA aproved club events but without sufficient info we should back off on the MSA bashing!

As I said previously the clubs need to take notice that there is a new and strong competitor on the block and look at ways of meeting and beating the challenge!

Maybe in the process of doing that the MSA will need to be challenged to change the way they see things also.

My concern that with all this flag waving for Javelin we are in danger of destroying the club structure that has been built up and all that goes with it that we enjoy and cherish each year on year of competition.

If the clubs do not resond  adequately then that maybe will ber another story!

Glutey 

[stephenh]

I think that all or almost all the regular Speed Series competitors think the same, namely that if organisers draft their event supplementary regulations in such a way that they have to end the competition after 2 competitive (ie counting towards the results) runs, that those organisers are not giving best value for money. Lawrie possibly missed the point there, thinking perhaps that the posts on this thread were complaining that those events didn't give value for money when compared with trackdays, whereas they are actually comparing one sprint (or Hillclimb) with another.

However, not all competitors think the same way, there are some (not regular Speed Series competitors) who think that a "serious" sprinter only wants 2 competitive runs, and if you want lots then you should be doing trackdays rather than sprints. This is particularly so amongst those clubs/championships whose regulations only permit 2 competitive runs to count for their championship.

I didn't think that way of course when I was competing, but I discovered this when I was talking to another competitor (not an SS one!) in the paddock at Curborough not very long after the event several years ago at Prescott when Longton (I think it was) managed to get in so many runs. I mentioned to my neighbour in the Curborough Paddock about how many runs we had at Prescott, and he said he thought it had been a shambles and that if people wanted to do so many runs they should do trackdays. He seemed to be quite serious about it, not joking. So I thought I would mention this. Not sure what it adds, just that there is this alternative view, and that maybe the SS should avoid clubs/events where this view seems to prevail, and stick to clubs and events where they share the same view as the SS, namely to get as many runs in in reasonable time as the day permits.

To be clear on another point in this thread, it is not anything to do with the MSA. Clubs are free to draft their supplementary regs either way on this aspect ,the MSA do not lay down rules either way.