2016 Speed Series Regulations - Your input please.

[Kevin Jones]

I am in favour of the suggestion to allow E/F to continue with 1C if a driver wishes. This is mainly to help protect the speed series entry numbers by making sure we have a place for cars that might struggle not only with next years tyre changes but by more changes by the MSA further down the line.

 

I don't particularly see a need to force A-D off 1C for next year, if we criticise the MSA for lack of forward planning then making a snap change in the Speed Series is equally wrong. A grace period of 1 year would I think be a better option. This also allows people to decide to spend on tyres or HANS. Personally I would much rather spend on HANS that will improve my safety over multiple years than bin my existing tyres and buy another set for no gain, and I would hope others would make the same choice.

 

On the championship position I don't think the current system works very well for drivers of more standard cars but of course no system is perfect. However as 1B runners are going to disadvantaged next year vs target times I would suggest it was a good time to split the overall award at least for next year so that we have novice, road-going and mod-prod champions. The difference between road-going and mod-prod not being strictly based on class but MSA category. So running in F on 1B tyres would qualify as a road-going car, but D on 1C tyres would be mod-prod.

[Craig Spooner]

Having run in A for the last 2 seasons as a newcomer to the series I have enjoyed the benefits of 1C tyres coupled with a relatively low powered Engine.

 

My winter upgrades focus on adding some power ahead of a move to class C. The idea of having to run road rubber is not particularly appealing.

 

The car already has a comp log book & cage so the additional purchase of a helmet/HANS upgrade to allow running in mod prod where event organisers dictate seems like the logical way to go.

 

I would like some clarification on Road legal versus Road going, is a Current MOT & Proof of tax sufficient or is it an MSA class stipulation? (Apologies if the answer is somewhere above)

 

As for an opinion on class brake points for purely selfish reasons since I run a 1796cc engine would prefer the current limits to stay in place.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Thanks for the posts so far, some good suggestions and opinions coming across. Keep posting 

 

The plan is to allow this topic to run until Midnight Sunday 25th, then close it and allow the SSOT to consider the points made and come up with a plan.

[Onliest Smeg David]

Having run in A for the last 2 seasons as a newcomer to the series I have enjoyed the benefits of 1C tyres coupled with a relatively low powered Engine.

 

My winter upgrades focus on adding some power ahead of a move to class C. The idea of having to run road rubber is not particularly appealing.

 

The car already has a comp log book & cage so the additional purchase of a helmet/HANS upgrade to allow running in mod prod where event organisers dictate seems like the logical way to go.

 

I would like some clarification on Road legal versus Road going, is a Current MOT & Proof of tax sufficient or is it an MSA class stipulation? (Apologies if the answer is somewhere above)

 

As for an opinion on class brake points for purely selfish reasons since I run a 1796cc engine would prefer the current limits to stay in place.

Do you know where they're heading under the MSA reg changes with your other Championships Craig?

[Terzo204]

I have a 1.8 Zetec in my Westfield. Suffice to say, I don't want the class structures to change engine capacities for next year either.

 

John - can you post the Graham V's photo on this thread? I cannot view it (I'm not a member of the uphill racers forum).

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Craig Spooner]

Dave

 

MHCC will be going 1A/b for road going which may mean that I enter mod prod as I only intend running 1 set of tyres just waiting the regs before I make that decision

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

I have a 1.8 Zetec in my Westfield. Suffice to say, I don't want the class structures to change engine capacities for next year either.

 

John - can you post the Graham V's photo on this thread? I cannot view it (I'm not a member of the uphill racers forum).

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

 

See my gallery or recent galleries on right

[Onliest Smeg David]

1700cc split isnt what it used to be alas- many events choose 1800cc or 2000cc as the split. Particularly when considering Mod Prod as the MSA class (if we want to run 1C in any of the roadgoing). I suspect more of the events this year are not using a 1700cc class split for our classes then those that are when considering A/B , C/D, E/F and G/H

 

There are several supporters of the series who use 1800cc cars who could be pushed away if the split changed. Assuming the rule decided last year but abaited for 1 year isnt dropped (and I see no reason for it to be) then re-stroking engines in A-D wont be permitted. This probably address the issue without effecting more modest 1800cc cars.

 

Personally I think the days of cc based classes are long since arbitrary, as I believe I have proven (which was the point I was trying to make before proving it)... but that leads to a whole other can of worms. There is a solutuon but it too much change though has a lot going for it.

Whatever method of sorting out different classes, there would always be different 'abilities' of Westfield in class. But I agree that cc classes are bit out of sort when within a class there can be a difference of 100hp+ (without factoring in weight).

" many events choose 1800cc" Apart from our Blyton I've not been to one where the split was 1800 for me! I've always been competing against 2000, with the split at 1700.

 

It appears that the majority would be happy to run 1C in 'Mod Prod' and if other Championships/Event organisers are doing the same then that's probably the way to go. I do feel that this route would hamper long term sustainability and move access to the championship further away from those who have not yet experienced Sprinting.

Trackdayers I've seen appear to mainly run new list 1B 1A tyres or sometimes 2nd hand ex race. I've not seen any on dearer sprint rubber (barring those of us on car shake down on pre event trackdays) so new sprinters would have more costs with Hans etc if we were to go 1C tyres for ACBD classes. 

I'm a recently hooked advocate of sprinting and I would definitely not have tried it out if '1C mod prod' had been the state of regs back then.

We need to keep trying to escalate numbers competing in SS. IMO key to this is attracting new competitors allongside keeping current ones.

Part of that is also being inclusive of other Championships so that competitors can double up if they wish. That may help draw competitors in from other Champs as well as allowing our current ones to compete successfully elsewhere as ambassadors of WSCC. Winning on the day trophies also puts WSCC up there as a great club having an excellent Sprint Championship.

Something else that can put members off is changes to SS regs. Not knowing what regs will be and it appearing a minefield even though it isn't.

 

Whatever is decided I think we should look to future years, not just satisfy ourselves for short term gain. The SSOC are in the best place to do this and it's great that they're seeking our thoughts.

[Captain Colonial]

Thanks for the posts so far, some good suggestions and opinions coming across. Keep posting 

 

The plan is to allow this topic to run until Midnight Sunday 25th, then close it and allow the SSOT to consider the points made and come up with a plan.

 

Nick - I've set this thread to auto lock for you at 0001 on Monday 26th October.

[Terzo204]

See my gallery or recent galleries on right

Thanks.

[windy]

For a WSCC only event class could we not write out the requirement for modprod rules regarding 1C and Hans in the SRs?

[Pistol Pete]

The history as I understand it was that the rules were in the blue book but clubs/championships could amend them slightly as you suggest windy.

However back when road going was restricted to 1a tyres quite a few championships got unwittingly approved by the msa with 1b being allowed to run in road going - the southern ones were one allowing kitcars on 1b for example.

When production cars started running 1b then people in models prod started complaining as for them to run 1b they had to have lots more safety etc.

Long story short, msa opened up the tyre ruled but only did so on the basis they were followed. So now championships have to meet all the rules in the blue book but are only Fred to split in further sub classes (engine size make etc) as they wish.

[XTR2Turbo]

Just seen this posted on uphill racers.

 

Doesn't sound as bad as some feared if we use ZZR 1b in 13" Caterham spec

 

David

 

This has rumbled on as expected so apologies if I repeat previous responses / comments:
The 1B ZZR that is going to be available for road going kit cars (so, Caterhams, Westfields, strikers etc) is in the 64 medium compound - not the supersoft compound we have typically used. So, actually, the chances are that other tyres in the 1B list will be as 'grippy'.

Here is the response I had from Avon:
The spec numbers 15156/15157 are for OE Caterham fitment, this means they need to be fully Reg 117 compliant, Caterham need this compliance to sell new cars hence why as OE supplier we have altered 15156/15157 to pass the regs, and left the rest of the range alone (Under a Reg 117 competition use only exemption).

Therefore the 185/55R13 ad 215/55R13 comply but only specs 15156 & 15157. Any other spec in this size will be in list 1C ie. The super soft hillclimb versions of these sizes plus the rest of the ZZR range.

A64 (ZZR) will offer a higher level of peak grip and will likely come in quicker (Medium/ Hard Comp.) A84 (ZZS) is an all-weather compound, whilst it won’t offer the absolute grip of A64 it will offer superior wet weather characteristics.

Regarding your last point, any car that runs the 15156 and 15157 spec tyre are eligible for list 1B, not just Caterhams. Therefore Westfields and Sylva running spec 15156/15167 are ok.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

The history as I understand it was that the rules were in the blue book but clubs/championships could amend them slightly as you suggest windy.

However back when road going was restricted to 1a tyres quite a few championships got unwittingly approved by the msa with 1b being allowed to run in road going - the southern ones were one allowing kitcars on 1b for example.

When production cars started running 1b then people in models prod started complaining as for them to run 1b they had to have lots more safety etc.

Long story short, msa opened up the tyre ruled but only did so on the basis they were followed. So now championships have to meet all the rules in the blue book but are only Fred to split in further sub classes (engine size make etc) as they wish.

 

Pete,

Your post is mostly correct and does give the historical timeline of what happened.

 

One Key point that will hopefully add to it is this.

 

Any Championship may "Restrict" an MSA Category, but may not "Widen" it. So taking tyres as this is what we are talking about.

 

Our Road-going cars are allowed in the MSA Category to run 1A & 1B tyres, In our Championship we could "restrict" certain classes to 1A tyres, but we could not "Widen" our regs to allow them on 1C tyres.

So if we want our "road-going" cars to run 1C, we have to call them a Mod Prod Class, but then "restrict" that class to 1C rather than slicks and also all the rest of the road-going gear.

 

I post that so people will be aware that there is a process to go through. You don;t need to worry about it as that's what I end up doing each year !!! 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Copy of email I have sent to the MSA:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Firstly, if you are not the appropriate person for this email to be addressed to, could you please be so kind as to forward it on to the most appropriate person.

 

I am emailing in response to the tyre regulation changes for 2016 regarding list 1B for speed event competitors, in particular road going specialist production cars. These classes are almost entirely road going kit cars. These cars are a great way to enter motorsport at a grass roots level and I would suggest that it is where the majority of newcomers to the sport first compete in these classes.

 

The vast majority of kit cars used in speed events within road going classes use 13” wheels for handling benefits as they were designed in this way. Prior to the new changes with regards to the list 1B tyres available for 2016 onwards, there was a quite a choice of 13” sized 1B tyres to choose from. By far the most popular for our application were Avon ZZR and Kumho Ecsta V70a which now find themselves on tyre list 1C. The majority of the new list 1B tyres are now only available in much larger sizes which are completely unsuitable for our types of cars. Not only this, but there are several makes and model of tyre which are designated for only pre-1990 cars which limits the choice even further. Having such a narrow choice of suitable tyres will almost definitely put off potential newcomers to the sport as they will almost certainly have a make and model of tyre which is not on the new list 1B. However, tyre list 1C now contains many of the previously favoured tyres plus others which are suited to our requirements perfectly and are legal for use on the public highway. Not only this but the majority of my fellow competitors and myself  already possess tyres that are still perfectly usable. Changing tyres (and possibly wheels) would be costly, wasteful and unnecessary.

 

In addition, many championships that we compete in are scored by awarding bonus points for beating previous best times or class records. With the poor choice of list 1B tyres now available, this becomes an almost impossible task and puts our classes at a distinct disadvantage compared to others.

 

My fellow road going specialist production car competitors therefore appeal that you see our dilemma and amend the regulations to allow us to use any tyre from list 1A, 1B or 1C as long as it is designated to be suitable for us on the public highway, which therefore by definition implies that it is road going.

 

An online petition which many of my fellow competitors have signed can be found here displaying their feelings about the subject and supporting my suggestion. I hope that you will give it proper consideration.

 

I await your response.

 

Best regards

 

John Loudon

 

Licence holder number xxxxx