2016 Speed Series Regulations - Your input please.

[davidgh]

FWIW (I am, after all, not an SS competitor in 2015), my recommendation would be to keep things as simple as possible.

 

The basis of my thinking is as follows:

--  It is an unfortunate fact that almost all competitors who wish to continue being such are going to be involved in expense for next year  --  either for new tyres or for HANS (not to mention ROPS).

--  Many of our competitors like to have fun competing with similar cars on the day, and/or compete in other championships in addition to SS.

--  My personal experience is that ModProd and ModSpecProd are much less fun (not as close or well supported) as "Road-going" (see anecdote below).

 

Assuming therefore that we are not going to succeed in persuading the MSA to resile from its current position on List 1c, we should take the simplest course of action which is most likely to keep SS road-going classes fair and accessible, and allows our competitors to compete in other championships and road-going classes on the day.

That appears to be simply to

--  require the use of "new 1b" (or, for those who wish, 1a) tyres in all road-going classes from 1st January,

--  leave the TTs alone (except possibly as below)  --  as they remain a "level playing field" in class,  

--  reduce the emphasis on the "SS overall champion" in favour of the class champions until the dust settles.

 

 

I don't think anything much else needs to change. There are a lot of 1800 Zetecs around, and having our split at 1800cc has worked quite well in the past (as a 1600cc SS driver I never felt overawed by the presence of the Zetecs) and certainly does provide a home for them where most championships do not.

Clearly, ACW's recent eccentricity (which is outside the financial ability of almost all of us) has put many of the Class E and (possibly) G targets out of reach of ordinary mortals. This would not worry me if he had competed at all venues (his times would, in that case, still have provided a level playing field for in-class competition), but, unfortunately, he did not. This means that TTs at some venues are now much more approachable for "normal" competitors than those at other venues, which skews competition. If I were still on SSOT, I would recommend discounting ACW's Class E times from the TT list. Just a thought.

 

 

 

The "ModProd" anecdote. ModSpecProd (mod-prod-kits) does not normally attract many competitors on the day and frequently gets lumped together with ModProd. The class divisions are normally <1400, 1400-2000, and >2000cc. Slicks are allowed. A few years ago, I put a 1398cc 'Busa into the Striker and entered it for a season in ModSpecProd<1400. It was a most unsatisfactory experience with regard to good sport. I was invariably in a combined class with ModProd, and the cars involved were producing incredibly varied times (differences were several seconds, rather than the tenths we frequently see in road-going). Worse still, the Striker walked every event (typically by over ten seconds on faster circuits like Brands and Lydden) which ruined the championship season for the other class competitors, and was no fun at all. Other competitors' resentment resulted in BECs being excluded from ModProd by the clubs with whom the Striker had been entered for the following season. I was very glad to return to road-going.

[Captain Colonial]

I'm only going to weigh in on one thing here, and that's the HANS device.  I realise that it's an added expense.  I understand that doing the mods to your cars can be a PITA.

 

I posted this link in a different thread three years ago, and I strongly encourage you to read it - it's about how a HANS device works, how it saves lives, and the dangers of not fitting and using one when competing in motor sports:

 

Clicky

 

Why have I weighed in?  Two reasons, the second one purely selfish.

 

> When I lived in the States, a man down the street from me who I didn't know apart from the neighbourly friendly nod and wave, was killed in a racing incident that caused almost no damage to his car, but the rapid deceleration caused a basilar skull fracture that claimed his life.  The dynamics were not understood back then, and it was put down as a tragic unforeseeable death - as were many accidents those days.  I sometimes wonder what he would have went on to do and accomplish in his life if he had a HANS device.

 

> As club chairman, one of the things I have dreaded on a regular basis is getting news that a Speed Series competitor or a club member has been seriously injured or killed while driving their Westfield, and then carrying and expressing the club members' sympathies to their relatives.  My blood has run cold a few times already when I get a phone call detailing some pretty spectacular crashes that have happened (two rollovers and a venture into the woods which you all know about immediately spring to mind).  Gents, I have seen more than enough funerals in my time and have no desire to go to any more if it can be avoided through spending a bit of money.  Yeah, that's pretty selfish of me I know, but I don't care nor do I hide from it.

 

So yes, I'm sympathetic to the added cost and installation hassle of a HANS device - up to a point.  Sometimes we have to think about how our actions (or inaction) would affect those we love.  Please - if you compete in motor sports, fit a HANS device.

[Onliest Smeg David]

Clearly, ACW's recent eccentricity (which is outside the financial ability of almost all of us) has put many of the Class E and (possibly) G targets out of reach of ordinary mortals. This would not worry me if he had competed at all venues (his times would, in that case, still have provided a level playing field for in-class competition), but, unfortunately, he did not. This means that TTs at some venues are now much more approachable for "normal" competitors than those at other venues, which skews competition. If I were still on SSOT, I would recommend discounting ACW's Class E times from the TT list. Just a thought.

Adrian's lead over others in Class G is in fact much closer than both John's leads in C & D and they did not visit all venues either, so using your logic their times should be discounted from TTs as well. Having to get within the calculated % of their times this year had an impact on my scoring, and others.

Target Times should not be easy to achieve, but should be achievable within each class. However discounting these low TTs would just make it easier for the same competitors to score high in 2016, assuming they compete within the same classes.

 

I can relate to your anecdote. Years ago I won a College Championship (clearly not Sprinting  ) but none of the others were anywhere near my level, so it held no satisfaction to me. Coming 3rd in Class A (5th overall Novice) this year, fighting with Craig and Jason, has been one of the most rewarding experiences I've had competing in any sport. 

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

 

The "ModProd" anecdote. ModSpecProd (mod-prod-kits) does not normally attract many competitors on the day and frequently gets lumped together with ModProd. The class divisions are normally <1400, 1400-2000, and >2000cc. Slicks are allowed. A few years ago, I put a 1398cc 'Busa into the Striker and entered it for a season in ModSpecProd<1400. It was a most unsatisfactory experience with regard to good sport. I was invariably in a combined class with ModProd, and the cars involved were producing incredibly varied times (differences were several seconds, rather than the tenths we frequently see in road-going). Worse still, the Striker walked every event (typically by over ten seconds on faster circuits like Brands and Lydden) which ruined the championship season for the other class competitors, and was no fun at all. Other competitors' resentment resulted in BECs being excluded from ModProd by the clubs with whom the Striker had been entered for the following season. I was very glad to return to road-going.

 

Thanks for that David, your point is well made.

[B.RAD]

Hi All

Firstly I would like to say thanks to Nick and the SSOT for the chance to voice an opinion and share in what is clearly a very complicated situation - very much appreciated! I know you have all debated this at length to come up with the options and it is clear that real thought and effort has been put into this.

Secondly apologies for the delay in coming to the party - things have been a little hectic of late.

In terms of the options outlined, I would have to say my preference is for Classes option 2 and Scoring option B.

This is obviously in lieu of no turn around from the MSA on their regulation changes to the tyre lists.

I don't really have an issue with running new list 1b tyres, it is the lack of communication and consultation that I object to, and I am frustrated that I'm left with a near-new set of Kumho super softs that I won't be able to use Maybe someone who runs in a mod prod class might buy them off me?

I'm also annoyed that I won't be able to beat my personal times next year - and yes that is important, most of the time us novices are not in the running for 'on the day' trophies so it does come down to personal battles. Fine if you haven't competed before but going up Loton in over 60s will be disappointing.

Anyway, as wilth all things, what will be will be and I'll be very happy to be out competing with my chums next year on whatever tyres we end up with (subject to ROPS reg changes, otherwise this is all a moot point as I won't be competing anyway if that rule doesn't change).

As a point of reference for other clubs, the DEWS series that my dad and I will be competing in with our classic mini next year have agreed to allow all 1a, 1b and 1c tyres for their road going classes. They run in their own class at each event they attend.

Cheers

Barny

[phelpsa]

 

The "ModProd" anecdote. ModSpecProd (mod-prod-kits) does not normally attract many competitors on the day and frequently gets lumped together with ModProd. The class divisions are normally <1400, 1400-2000, and >2000cc. Slicks are allowed. A few years ago, I put a 1398cc 'Busa into the Striker and entered it for a season in ModSpecProd<1400. It was a most unsatisfactory experience with regard to good sport. I was invariably in a combined class with ModProd, and the cars involved were producing incredibly varied times (differences were several seconds, rather than the tenths we frequently see in road-going). Worse still, the Striker walked every event (typically by over ten seconds on faster circuits like Brands and Lydden) which ruined the championship season for the other class competitors, and was no fun at all. Other competitors' resentment resulted in BECs being excluded from ModProd by the clubs with whom the Striker had been entered for the following season. I was very glad to return to road-going.

 

To give a balance, my experience of the class has been very different! I've been competing in Mod Spec Prod for 5 seasons and can't remember a single time being lumped in with the Mod Prod cars (and the Satchell cars will usually give me a run for my money anyway!). I also can't imagine anyone walking the class by 10 seconds on a regular basis with competitors such as Terry E, Tim N, Adrian C-W, Matt H etc from WSCC, Simon Rogers from L7C and Ian Parr from ASWMC, who are just a few of the names topping the classes and knocking on the door of class records whenever I've competed. In fact, I've enjoyed the competition within the class so much that our roadgoing Westfield is likely to end up in Mod-Spec-Prod next year anyway.

[IanD]

Hi All

 

I have not competed in the Speed Series properly now for around 3 years (although I have entered every year with the full intention of doing so) but am desperate to get back.

 

I have been reading all the developments on here and other sites for some time and felt it time to get involved which I don’t oftern so apologies for the rambeling post.

 

So while I am a little out of touch, as someone that’s been involved on and off almost since the start of the Speed Series I want to support it in any way I can.

 

This MSA move on tyres, as with some others of late, is a real mess.

I guess ultimately there will be no way of getting out of it in the long term but they could have easily given us a year’s notice, Properly not a little * next to the list, so that we could be prepared.

 

Anyway rant over.

 

For me, I feel the key is to make as few changes as possible unless forced to do so by regulation change or if something isn’t working as stability is the key.

Any major change is going to cost people money which is ultimately a bad thing and will put people off.

 

I find myself basically agreeing with a lot of the great points that David H and John L (as well as others) have said.

 

Assuming we don’t get a reprieve from the MSA

• Use list 1A or 1B in classes A-D and allow 1C in classes E and F if the ModProd issue on the day can be sorted out.
• Leave the Target Times as they are and see how it things work out during the season. Maybe dropping an overall champion for this season (won’t be popular with everyone) and concentrating more on class champs. Like David I have always felt there should be more emphasis on class champs.
• For class split I don’t really see 1700cc or 1800cc as a major problem either way (but then I have a 1700cc engine) so my preference would be to keep as is at 1800cc for the reasons above. Especially if other clubs are now starting to move that way too. This should help keep the numbers up in the Class A novices wanting to join the sport too.

 

We don’t actually know how much slower the 1b’s will be yet we may be surprised and in a few years may be back to the level we are now (Wishful thinking probably )

 

 

 

I do have one issue that I would like to be addressed, for my own selfish reasons, that was dropped from the final regs this year but was in the draft and has so far only really briefly been mentioned by ACW.

 

That is the banning of non-standard stroke cranks in Classes A to D.

 

I understand the reasoning for this. The major costs and development involved in doing this from scratch which could be seen to be out of reach for most people and certainly not the sort of investment a road going car would normally receive, but unfortunately this would affect me directly as I have a non-standard crank in my engine.

 

Any one that knows me will know I do not have a lot of money to spend on the sport and I always do as much work on my car myself as possible when time and money allows. One of the resons I havent compeated this year

 

I had the opportunity to buy a cheap second-hand short motor that already had this crank fitted making my normally 1600cc engine 1700cc for less than rebuilding my existing engine with forged pistons and new liners etc that I then needed to keep my engine reliable at the level of power it was alredy running.  But for me this was still a considerable investment. More than I had ever spent on an engine before by the time it was installed.

 

The reason for going this route for me was not a calculated down grade of an larger capacity engine to fit into a lower class (Genius by the way not meant to be a dig   ) or even to stretch more power out of the engine, I could have gone to a 1800cc as a standard engine to do that and still be in the same class. It was done primarily for finical and reliability reasons as the crank would be much stronger that a standard one and therefore more reliable. This does of course give me more scope for higher power in the future but I am still far from having the same as other competitors in class C.

 

Because of the money and time (Time always being my biggest issue) invested in getting engine back together and in the car over that last few years I will not be happy if I have to start all over again. My car would not be competitive in Class E at all as it’s really is still a road car. I still have carpets and a H syncro box.

 

I am sure the reason for bringing this rule in could be covered by a paragraph that was in some of the older regs that basically stated something like. “Cars and Competitors should enter in the Spirit of the Speed Series and will be regulated as such”. Anyone remember this one properly?  Not easy to police I suppose but then we are not in F1 after all and we are generally an agreeable and fair bunch and are mostly in for the fun of it.

 

I would genuinely be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this rule as I suspect it only effects a hand full of us, may be only 2! Could there be a better way of fairly achiving the same goal. Prehaps not alowing reductions in standard engines cc as this carries more benifits than increasing the cc from a class entry situation?

 

 

Regardless of how the regs change I will give my support again to the Speed Series, though when I will be back out may depend on what changes.

The SSOT really do a great job of what must be a thankless and soul destroying task at times as its imposable to please everyone, they have my upmost thanks for all their work it takes to run our great series.  

 

I have signed Marto’s MSA petition. Great letter to the MSA John

 

Cheers

Ian

[mark.anson]

Clearly, ACW's recent eccentricity (which is outside the financial ability of almost all of us) has put many of the Class E and (possibly) G targets out of reach of ordinary mortals. This would not worry me if he had competed at all venues (his times would, in that case, still have provided a level playing field for in-class competition), but, unfortunately, he did not. This means that TTs at some venues are now much more approachable for "normal" competitors than those at other venues, which skews competition. If I were still on SSOT, I would recommend discounting ACW's Class E times from the TT list. Just a thought.

 

 

Thank you David 

 

I would be fairly confident in saying you have made the point the rest of us class G would wish to make , but without the vested interest and probably more politely !

For the rest of us bike engined mortals in class, our engines are already at the edge of development (without obtaining unobtainable/affordable WSB engines), and therefore we couldn't extract any more significant performance from our cars.

I am seriously considering putting my car up for sale and doing something else as a result. Why would anyone want to enter class E or G when the times are unachievable without significant expense.

 

 

 

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Thanks Ian for your post and points made.

All the points and suggestions made on this thread are being noted and will be considered by the SSOT at a meeting to decide 2016 regs.

Ian made the point about the MSA changing their decision and there is a petition going. For the purposes of this discussion please assume that they don't change.

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

[Scottish Bloke]

Again, rather than discounting times, aggregate them from the top 3 in class at each event.

A/ your dealing with actual data

B/ it is an achievable time

C/ it eliminates the perfect scenario time/conditions etc. Are we actually expected to break records at every event. Records are records, targets as such need to be achievable.

Other than that, drop the overall next year, and realise that what we have is really very good. As has been said before, some of our drivers ae the quickest and best in the country. It works. Keep it simple, too much change and guessing will discourage participation, me included.

[Terry Everall]

Richard..I quite like the average idea but how would we deal with less than 3 in a class and do you mean the Westfield Class or Class on the day?

Thanks

[Scottish Bloke]

Use this year's data to calculate the new time. If there's only two....It's an average of two. Simple.

I think simply deleting the fastest time is a bit of a/ toys out the pram and b/ a bit of a slap in the face to the record holder. If the car was allowed to run in that class then the time should be at least acknowledged?

Using my suggestion is therefor best of both

[Terry Everall]

So we could use an average as the TT and then still maybe extra points for someone who beats the previous RECORD

[Scottish Bloke]

So we could use an average as the TT and then still maybe extra points for someone who beats the previous RECORD

Possibly, a good idea Terry.

I think the key is to keep it simple. In the following years we simply roll the data forward (assuming the times improve) or leave that class alone if the new time is not achieved?