WSCC Speed Series Class discussion

[AdamR]

Go on - nowt wrong with a bit of controversy / discussion!

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

[tkm_dave]

For reference, the current set of regs purely on times cars are achieving at well attended events (using Blyton as an example) are an incredibly good spread/progression from novices to unlimited!...

 

A: 69.04

B: 66.70

C: 67.69

D: 65.39

E: 65.83

F: 64.15

G: 65.04

H: 63.52

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

OK - here goes. I have been a WSCC sprint competitor for over 15 years and have over the years developed my car to get me to the front of our sport and the class which I compete in. To have the rules governing class structure up for debate by fellow competitors and newcomers just beggars belief. What's the point of it all? To hamper those that have developed over the years or to make it easy for those that haven't? All as this is likely to do is force some of us to look elsewhere.

 

To be fair, one or two of the points may be fair and valid. ie regarding cc split at 1700 to match the classes at actual events. This is why I chose the engine I did for my car. Also, regarding amalgamation of classes, if anything, shouldn't it be A and C and B and D rather than C and E and D and F? A and C are identical and so are B and D, especially so as there is a side championship for novices.

 

But please - BHP / tonne, control tyres

[alexander72]

As a novice with a cross flow I would keep it as it is.

[Paul Aspden]

I gave it a go recently and did ok,

Not much of an understatement there Adam R! In your road car weighing almost 600 KGS you beat all comers with the exception of John h who has been sprinting for years and has a very well developed car.

I would agree its all about getting new comers into the sport, but I would guess the majority of these will come from track days, so already have good cars with a decent spec, like Adams. Whilst 1000miles every couple of years would be nice, some genuine road cars might find this a restriction, but who knows?

My vote is for a class split in line with most regs at 1700, and merge classes D&F, C&E. Target times for these classes often come from what is considered the lower class, with the exception of those set last year by our champion, and this gets corrected if the class drops to 1700

If we really feel the need to recruit new competitors, maybe we as sprinters should attend track days to promote speed events?

[Paul Aspden]

By the way, control tyres were tried once and failed, I see no logical reason to do this again. Its almost inevitable that a control tyre will hamper performance, and we all want to go faster!

As a side note, IMHO the regs need publishing in draft before november 2015 so everyone has the chance to sort there car for the coming year, or find somewhere else to play.......

[Marto303]

Im half way through my second season competing as a novice in class B and can't see much wrong with things the way they are 

 

The novice classes have worked fine for me and allowed me to test the water last year as well as stretch my legs a little this year.

 

Motorsport is about development, development of your car and development of your ability and as such I feel our class structure does this well.

 

The on going debate about what is road going I find a little strange particularly as there is no such thing as a STANDARD road going Westfield, if it's MOT'd taxed & Insured it's road going end of ( regardless of how many seats it has or miles it does ).

 

We all start out in our cars ( in whatever state of tune ) with little knowledge of what makes a good sprint / hill climb car and equally little understanding of what makes a competitive driver, it's how we progress from there that make the difference.

 

Modifying your car to be more track orientated is a choice, a choice that will either push you forward in your sport or hold you back but it's your choice, therefore if you want carry on touring but enjoy competing a few times a year thats great and you'll have a great time but you can't expect to be as competitive as those who choose dedicate their car and time to competing.

 

We should keep the novice classes separate from the more experienced guy's to help attract new comers, run regular sprint schools ( if enough interest ) and whenever possible assign an experienced competitor as a mentor for the first few events.

 

My one big issue with the series is the number of events, I feel we have far to many events with far to few WSCC SS entrants. For me the best events are the ones that are well supported by the SS and allow me to compete with my fellow class mates on the day, thats the buzz, thats what competition is all about but with so many events across the country it is entirely possible to go a whole season and not meet a fellow class member,  just compete on paper 

 

So please please please less events Nick or make a certain number events mandatory for all competitors to attend 

 

On the engine size split personally I can't see the point in changing right now, I think dropping from 1800cc to 1700cc now would not benefit anyone, a tuned 1700cc crossflow or Puma is every bit as competitive as an 1800 zetec or K series.

 

As for the rest of the classes I agree with StephenH, I think we have them about right. Next year ( as I'll probably have run out of events to run as a novice again ) I can choose to move to class D with little change or investment in my car and be competitive, not win but have a chance of keeping up with the rest of the class and develop my driving ability. Jump to F and invest in the car again with gearboxes and electronics or dive in the deep end of H with slicks and no more road going restrictions but big investment and no chance of keeping up, the choice is mine.

 

Finally this debate is great, despite my personal opinion above we must look at all options to keep the speed series the envy of the paddocks     

[alexander72]

This is a really interesting debate and one I havent had time to contribute to as yet.  As a novice and a newbie with 15 sprints/hillclimbs under my belt I dont thing anything needs changing at all.

 

Is there a class for novices? yes

Is there a road legal class ? yes 

Is there BEC and CEC across the board ? yes

Can you use slicks if you want ? yes 

Is it competitive "in class" and "across classes" yes (in the wet at Wiscombe last year the mighty cross flow was competitive)

Is it affordable - yes 

is it fun - yes 

will i do it again - yes 

 

Hold that - Marto has hit the nail on the head...

[tkm_dave]

For me the best events are the ones that are well supported by the SS and allow me to compete with my fellow class mates on the day, thats the buzz, thats what competition is all about

Definitely agree with this, the more definitely is the merrier. If there was a way to make a handful of events as well attended as the WSCC Blyton weekend I think that would be a really great thing for the speed series, though I'm sure it's not an easy task by any means.

[Shaggydoo]

So please please please less events Nick or make a certain number events mandatory for all competitors to attend

I think this point Marto made is the key to getting more enjoyment out of the speed series for us novice drivers. Also novice target times for us novices would certainly make it more realistic and rewarding for us as a novice group. I'm Not sure what can be done if anything.

But frustratingly chasing pie in the sky target times at a few events for me made me play my own little beer betting game with Smeg. Which really made the events 'fun'. Thanks Smeg :-)

[Barry S]

OK First thoughts as only just seen this thread,,

We seem to be trying to achieve 2 things which on the face of it are mutually exclusive, i.e. appeal to the newbies with a relatively std car and keep the experienced guys happy. Not easy,,

There are however several easily identifiable components that usually only turn up on out and out track / race orientated or very well developed track day cars e.g.

1, Exotic dampers, Penski, Olhins, nitron (to a certain extent) etc, exact list would need to be defined

2, Rose jointed suspension, other than the 4 at the rear of a std independent Westfield.

3, Dog and sequential gear boxs

4, Electronic driver aids, flappy paddles, launch control, traction control, flat shift etc

5, Carbon Fibre chassis panelling (not body panels as many road going cars have this for da bling man!)

6, light weight steering racks, i.e. not Mk2 Escort derived.

Probably a couple more but can't think of them for now,,

All of the above are easily identifiable and thus policeable, is that a word?

So, using the above how about (for simplicity I'm only going to use car engine capacity breaks):

Class A

Road legal up to 1700cc, items 1,2,3,4,5,6 may not be fitted to the car, list 1A or 1B tyres permitted. Novice drivers only as per current definitions

Class B

Road legal over 1700cc, items 1,2,3,4,5,6 may not be fitted to the car, list 1A or 1B tyres permitted. Novice drivers only as per current definitions

Class A1

Road legal up to 1700cc, items 1,2,3,4,5,6 may not be fitted to the car, list 1A or 1B tyres permitted. expert drivers.

Class B1

Road legal over 1700cc, items 1,2,3,4,5,6 may not be fitted to the car, list 1A or 1B tyres permitted. Expert drivers

Class's A1 and B1 aimed at drivers who become experts through experience but do not want to spend a fortune developing a car.

Class C

Road Legal up to 1700cc, items 1, 4, 5 and 6 may not be fitted to the car, List 1 B tyres

Class D

Road Legal over 1700cc, items 1, 4, 5 and 6 may not be fitted to the car, List 1 B tyres

From what I can see and have driven there is virtually no difference between a manually shifted sequential dog box and a H pattern dog box.

Class E

Pretty much what we have now , road going unlimited up to 1700cc, i.e. if its road legal anything goes.

Class F

Pretty much what we have now , road going unlimited over 1700cc, i.e. if its road legal anything goes.

Class G and H

leave alone

For the record control tyres, no thanks,

To summarise my thoughts, this would give a better defined entry level class and put a little more distance between c/d and e/f??

Cheers

Barry

[Tom Frankland (T3OMF)]

So which class would a novice driver that had done 5 sprints before, that has a 2.0l engine road going car with carbon interior panels, nose cone and bonnet and standard steering rack, gearbox and Suspension go in?

[Lee Smith]

Hi, All

 

I have already spent some time trying to find a better way of doing things to no avail! I am half way through my second season so only have a limited knowledge however I can say that the current setup works well!

 

We are all beating about the bush here and the issues the speed series have are simple.

 

Man with most money wins……

Man with more time wins……

Man with best luck wins…. (It rained on my run but not his)

If I had his car I would be winning!

 

If you want to compete Driver v Driver then simply play computer games, there really is no other way of getting two cars / runs to be the same.

 

For me it’s all about the Man and his Machine.

 

Before joining the Westfield World I raced model cars at a high level see here

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIK0bdD8X8 (1:57)

 

The problems faced here were exactly the same as we face here. The person with the most developed car wins which usually mean lots of money!

 

Which brings me to my last issue. “Road Going Class”

 

How do you define a road going car?

 

If it’s got an MOT, Insurance and Tax then its road legal?

 

But could you use it on the road comfortably? Would it go over a speed bump or do 100miles on one tank of fuel? Is it a road car or a sprint car or half and half?

 

For me a Stock Westfield is half and half!

 

I like Adams earlier suggestion that each car do at least 1000 miles between mot`s to remain in road going class however may I suggest that the road going class at each event have to have a 15 minute blatt at dinner time out on the open road with room for two people. If your car can’t do that then you really are not “Road Going” on the day.

 

What we also have to consider is although we are in the Westfield speed series we are also racing competitively at each event and placing restrictions on our own performance by limiting tyres or driver aids lowers our ability to compete on the day and therefore damages not only our own chances of performing well but damages and limits the Westfield brand!

 

Nothing pleases me more than out performing all the supercars and “other kit cars” which impose such restrictions.

 

With regard to the drivers aids (ABS, Traction Control, Launch Control) I would happily ban driver aids in the novice classes as I don’t think you can learn to drive with a computer doing all the work but banning across the classes would again damage the brand.

 

As a club I think the aim should be to keep the costs as low as possible so we naturally get a constant flow of new blood every year. Motorsport is generally very expensive and requires a massive commitment so it’s important that each and every competitor gets rewarded for their efforts.

That free WSCC mug was assume and I drink my morning coffee out of it! ;-)

 

We need more events not less! We need to give as many people as possible an event on their doorstep to encourage them! That’s why we have target times!

 

At the end of the day I just want to thank the WSCC team for doing such a great job and express my gratitude for all the fun I’m having! Thanks!

 

[XTR2Turbo]

I have only ever competed in  7 or 8 events so relatively limited experience.

 

For me the appeal of the speed series, in order of importance,  is:

 

1) fun / social - especially the weekend events

2) improving my times by improving my skill and also learning more about car set up and development

3) comparing my driving ability against others on as close to like for like as possible

4) competing to possibly win a prize at an event or end of the year.

 

1) and 2) are enough for me to enter whatever the regs stipulate and I hope to significantly increase my number of events going forwards.

 

For me 3) and 4) are quite tricky in the short term because I have chosen to compete in a megabusa and there aren't many others out there and it puts me in class F with very challenging target times.

 

So from a personal perspective I would prefer there not to be class A/ B but expert / novice target times for all the classes.  I don't know if I am unique or there are other megablade / busa owners out there potentially put off because they would be straight into an expert class today.

 

But I also think it is important that the rules don't get so complicated, contrived and unstable to cope with the exceptions that it then impacts the majority. 

 

I also think it is important that we remember that there is always a spirit to the rules as well as a letter of the law.

 

If a novice wants to build a 400 hp supercharged duratec car, with ohlins suspension and carbon everything and traction control to enter class B there is nothing in the letter of the rules to stop them but I don't think that the spirit of the rules is being followed.

 

Perhaps the unwritten intention / expectation of the rules should be spelt out more clearly in broad terms. There will always be those that get their satisfaction from exploiting the rules to the extreme but that doesn't mean you need to regulate against it and they probably won't win the 'spirit of the speed series award' !

 

One aspect where I do wonder if something is missing is the big gap between those that are no longer novice but not competitive with the 'experts'.  Perhaps a handicap system or intermediate status could recognise / reward ongoing improvement beyond novice more so than we do today.  Over the past couple of years a lot of novices have been attracted which is great but we seem to have lost a lot of drivers that I would class as intermediates.  Why is that?