stu999 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The trouble with many 'Third Party Disclaimers' is that the disclaimer is often worded so as to protect the track day company / race track, as opposed to participants. I think there was quite a bit of discussion on the PH thread about that. Besides, disclaimers aren't often worth the paper they are printed on, if negligence can be proved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 You must understand that the disclaimer you sign at a trackday is to say you won't hold the organisers or the circuit owner liable for any injury or loss which you suffer. That doesn't, and cannot in law prevent a 3rd. party from claiming against you if you are negligent and by your negligence you cause loss or injury to the 3rd. party, such as another driver, or a passenger, or a marshall, or maybe a spectator. Afterall, how could it? they haven't signed your disclaimer, it is a contract between you and the organisers not some other 3rd. party. I must say, I've seen some absolute danglers driving at trackdays, plainly beyond their own ability. Several people have spun in front of me, so I always tried to leave room for me to slow down and drive round the into corners in case of that eventuality, but equally I've seen drivers right on the tail of other drivers, as if they are in a race, and it really isn't wise, unless you know the person you are following and you know their ability. The principle is no different to driving on the highway; if the person in front of you does something stupid or unexpected will you be able to avoid a collision? If not, then back off until you get to the straight, then pass them as quickly as you can. Personally, I prefer trying to drive at 10/10ths against the clock in a sprint with no other cars in the immediate vicinity, to driving at 8/10ths. in the company of other cars some of which may be well driven, but it only takes one dangler to ruin everyones day. And if you try driving at 10/10ths on a trackday, ask yourself who is the dangler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellski Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The trouble with many 'Third Party Disclaimers' is that the disclaimer is often worded so as to protect the track day company / race track, as opposed to participants. I think there was quite a bit of discussion on the PH thread about that. Besides, disclaimers aren't often worth the paper they are printed on, if negligence can be proved... You must understand that the disclaimer you sign at a trackday is to say you won't hold the organisers or the circuit owner liable for any injury or loss which you suffer. That doesn't, and cannot in law prevent a 3rd. party from claiming against you if you are negligent and by your negligence you cause loss or injury to the 3rd. party, such as another driver, or a passenger, or a marshall, or maybe a spectator. Afterall, how could it? they haven't signed your disclaimer, it is a contract between you and the organisers not some other 3rd. party. Apologies, this is not entirely correct, in light of events last year most track day operators amended their disclaimer accordingly, the following wording is taken from MSE's disclaimer signed by all participants of their events regardless of involvement: "In consideration of being permitted to participate in various activities, by or for on behalf of MOTORSPORT EVENTS LIMITED, I hereby agree to indemnify MOTORSPORT EVENTS LIMITED, its respective officers, servants and/or agents, event instructors and any third party engaged in organising, administering or participating in the said various activities in respect of my death or injury or loss or damage to my property or the property of any other party arising out of my participation in or attendance at any of the said activities." Of course if proven to be negligent then this is a different story as per my previous posts but again, I emphases the fact, that this could be the case for any activity we participate in where we may not have cover for third party liability not just Motorsport. More to the point, even if you have third party cover and were found to be negligent, the insurance company could reject a claim! I'm looking forward to taking part in a few track days as well as hopefully attending a couple of speed series events this year, so look forward to sharing good experiences with you all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammy Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 thanks all - the position hasn't changed then and there is no cover ! . This is very sad and will stop me doing track days, the risk is small ( and I would not critise and one from doing it) but the consequences could be ruiness .. Sprinters might not be exempt either, you cannot sign away death or injury - otherwise assisted suicide would not be illegal ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Sprinters might not be exempt either, you cannot sign away death or injury - otherwise assisted suicide would not be illegal !with sprinting though you are never overtaking someone else or getting close enough to them to be at risk of a collision. There is a strict no overtaking rule for sprints, and should you be going fast enough to catch up someone else, then you ease off and are allowed a re-run.Therefore the risk of causing death or personal injury to another competitor on track is virtually nill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Indemnity terms noted, but wasn't there a case recently where an insurance company claimed the indemnity didn't bind them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Apologies, this is not entirely correct, in light of events last year most track day operators amended their disclaimer accordingly, the following wording is taken from MSE's disclaimer signed by all participants of their events regardless of involvement: "In consideration of being permitted to participate in various activities, by or for on behalf of MOTORSPORT EVENTS LIMITED, I hereby agree to indemnify MOTORSPORT EVENTS LIMITED, its respective officers, servants and/or agents, event instructors and any third party engaged in organising, administering or participating in the said various activities in respect of my death or injury or loss or damage to my property or the property of any other party arising out of my participation in or attendance at any of the said activities." Of course if proven to be negligent then this is a different story as per my previous posts but again, I emphases the fact, that this could be the case for any activity we participate in where we may not have cover for third party liability not just Motorsport. More to the point, even if you have third party cover and were found to be negligent, the insurance company could reject a claim! I'm looking forward to taking part in a few track days as well as hopefully attending a couple of speed series events this year, so look forward to sharing good experiences with you all I, like you, would like to think so - however, sadly the 'legal' barrage continues to threaten track days as we know it... http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-motorcyclist-bobby-khan-speaks-6713362 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dombanks Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 any other info on that crash? like which corner/conditions etc/appropriate speed (90 seems fast but it is a bike)? i think it was just before me and hellski were there. the way it was reported seemed to indicate there were no flags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILFAN Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Just choose your track day provider carefully, don't drive like a idiot & fit front and rear cameras. If you whiteness poor driving report it and if nothing it done demand your money back saying they are not obiding by the duty of care they are legally bound to an can not be indemnified against as you have pointed out unsafe actions which they have failed to address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 any other info on that crash? like which corner/conditions etc/appropriate speed (90 seems fast but it is a bike)? i think it was just before me and hellski were there. the way it was reported seemed to indicate there were no flags. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24426442 Plenty more via Google.... I personally find it very hard to believe there was a 40 second delay between incident and flags bring shown. I assume the cometely unmissable lights were up and running then too? But if there was such a delay and it is proved...then that disclaimer we gave been discussing may as well be ripped up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickmaster Andy Lowe Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I, like you, would like to think so - however, sadly the 'legal' barrage continues to threaten track days as we know it... http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-motorcyclist-bobby-khan-speaks-6713362 Whole can of worms not good at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dombanks Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Had a good read around last night stu I'm not convinced by the 40s delay either. (40s must be nearly 1/3 of a lap on a bike in the fast group) Neither by the red flag comment either. Surely if the argument revolves around there being no marshal between the crash and him hitting it then a red would have been pointless? Plus if there was a flag/light then why didn't he slow down? Seems ambiguous where it was. Either up the hill into Druids or over the hill on the back straight? It'll be interesting to watch the outcome and whatever you have to feel sorry for the guy. But it goes to show whilst its bit motor racing as such it's still a risk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have heard from others that the incident occurred just beyond the brow of Clay Hill. If an incident did occur there, would be a nasty place as whether in car or on bike, you do take a leap of faith going over the top that nothing is unfolding out of sight on the other side. Or at least, you are relying in the marshals to give you any necessary warning at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It was reported by No Limits (the track day organisers) at the time that it was at turn 13, city hall http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=74&t=1337729&mid=94931&i=0&nmt=Serious+incident+at+Oulton+Park+trackday+&mid=94931 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It was reported by No Limits (the track day organisers) at the time that it was at turn 13, city hall http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=74&t=1337729&mid=94931&i=0&nmt=Serious+incident+at+Oulton+Park+trackday+&mid=94931 Which is worrying in itself, as to my knowledge there isn't such a turn at Oulton!!!http://www.oultonpark.co.uk/circuit-information.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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