Track day insurance - yet again

[Hammy]

Apologies! I can't search from my phone very well/incompetence !

Anyhow ... What is the position on trackday insurance now following all the posts last years after the caterham incident ?

I want to do do track days in the VX this year , but don't want to be sued for causing any accidents . There was a long thread in the subject and insurance was being looked at , was there any outcome ??

Mods feel free to move this if you find the other thread and want to tidy this up .

Thx

[Mark (smokey mow)]

This is the orignal Pistonheads Thread

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=18&t=1332239&mid=94931&i=0&nmt=Claim+from+a+track+day&mid=94931

[Hammy]

http://insurance4motorsport.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/track-day-third-party-insurance-latest.html?m=1

It's more the third party liability bit that bothers me - being bankrupted for putting someone in a wheel chair . Looks like this and insurance that would pay out for any car you hit is not coverable, and so the risk remains .

I want to do track days but this scares me off - I accept others may accept the risk, that's up to them .

[Mark (smokey mow)]

As I understand it that's right. You can insure against damage to your own car and can sign a disclimer to the effect that you wont pursue costs for damage caused by others however you cannot discaim against death or personal injury.

[alexander72]

what smokey said - 1st party liability insurable - 3rd party liability very difficult to insure unless you have very large excess.  Please also remember that whatever indemnity you sign other parties with an interest can go against you if you have been negligent or acting with wilful disregard…  its a very complicated area and one I have tried to develop a product for (as a former underwriter of indemnities and complex risks) 

[Wile E. Coyote]

As I understand it that's right. You can insure against damage to your own car and can sign a disclimer to the effect that you wont pursue costs for damage caused by others however you cannot discaim against death or personal injury.

 

That is the position AIUI too.  But it doesn't take away the risks in the way that many people think it does.

 

Please also remember that whatever indemnity you sign other parties with an interest can go against you if you have been negligent or acting with wilful disregard… 

 

And that is the the point that is being overlooked by most... along with the fact that you wouldn't find out about other interests until it was too late.

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

It's making the speed series look cheep

MSA insurance included

Only one on the track (well 15 seconds gap)

About £110 a day half the price of most track days

That's why I started sprinting, but I still can't resist the odd trackday

[dombanks]

It's making the speed series look cheep

MSA insurance included

Only one on the track (well 15 seconds gap)

About £110 a day half the price of most track days

That's why I started sprinting, but I still can't resist the odd trackday

how many goes do you get?

 

what i don't get with the track insurance thing is proving or defending negligence. at what point are you negligent. is a 1st time out trackday novice more negligent in a crash than a seasoned veteran because their experience etc is not up to it. is there an assumed level of competence for drivers doing days.

 

i will be the first to admit that on my last track day in the wet my ability wasnt as good as others so i took it easy but i still ended up sideways a couple of times and i still pushed as hard as i could.

[Hellski]

I too was concerned by the events last year but was pleased to see that the pursuing insurance company came to their senses, whether this was from public pressure or the industry it self, it saved the track day industry as we know it!!

 

Personally I take the view if somebody is driving on the track without due care and attention to others and involved in a collision, they have to be prepared to suffer the consequences of their actions the same as it is for anybody participating in any sport, whether it be skiing, shooting, rugby, football, cricket, golf, etc the same dangers apply, all could cause injuries or possibly death to others.

 

I did my first couple of track days last year, one at Oulton Park, when you were their Dom.  I wore my novice sticker with pride letting those around me fully aware of my novice status and attempted to drive within my limits, yes I got it wrong on occasions, once with the instructor but at no time on either track day did I feel unsafe or would have been the cause of anything considered dangerous to others.

[dombanks]

 

I did my first couple of track days last year, one at Oulton Park, when you were their Dom.  I wore my novice sticker with pride letting those around me fully aware of my novice status and attempted to drive within my limits, yes I got it wrong on occasions, once with the instructor but at no time on either track day did I feel unsafe or would have been the cause of anything considered dangerous to others.

 

yeah i remember. i had one on too as i don't feel like i have enough experience to say im not a novice. that day is a good example tho, it was quite slippy and easy to get out of shape. i think a good solicitor could argue that both of us in having the novice sticker on was admitting our lack of skill and should not have gone out on a damp/wet/greasy track. if you see what i mean. flip side is neither of us crashed, we did display the sticker and were probably slower than others so we did all we could to control the situation and drive with due care.

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

how many goes do you get?

what i don't get with the track insurance thing is proving or defending negligence. at what point are you negligent. is a 1st time out trackday novice more negligent in a crash than a seasoned veteran because their experience etc is not up to it. is there an assumed level of competence for drivers doing days.

i will be the first to admit that on my last track day in the wet my ability wasnt as good as others so i took it easy but i still ended up sideways a couple of times and i still pushed as hard as i could.

2 practice runs and 3 timed runs at least

At 3 sisters last year 2 practice and 7 timed runs on the last couple of runs there wasn't enought time to get out of the car

I like the layed back do a lap have a chat approach to sprints, your normally getting 1 run every hour

On track days I tend to clock up about 100 miles in a day

Give sprinting a go

[Hellski]

But on the other hand we were notifying others of our ability rather then not, just as a learner would whilst driving on public roads, so could be argued either way.

 

Like anything we do in life, you have to be able to demonstrate we've accessed the situation and taken the necessary actions before taking any unnecessary risks, if we can demonstrate this, you have nothing to worry about, accidents can happen but this shouldn't stop us from enjoying ourselves within our chosen sport/past-time.

 

On the other had, if we weren't taking the necessary precautions for the conditions on the day and not displaying a novice sticker, we could only prove that we've only done a handful of track days, our driving was beyond our abilities which was witnessed by others and our actions caused harm to another individual, we would deserve the book to be thrown at us.

 

These sort of debates go on in all walks of life and if we worried about everything, which is becoming increasingly easy within the "Nannie State" we live in, then every day would become a 'duvet day' as the wife likes to call them!

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

The real worry here is that pretty much everyone has come to expect to do a track day at their own risk, even if they got run into by someone else. 

 

But now this case has been bought and proven, then there is much more chance of you being sued if something happens. You only have to look at Dave Le Travis's case to realise that you may win in court, but lose your house in costs with no ability to get the money back from the other party, although with a civil case you stand a chance.

 

if you compare this with your position on the road, if you are an idiot and crash into a £ 1 million Bugatti, then your insurance will pay for it, full stop. Do the same on a trackday and the Bugatti driver will be after you for the money. so remember that house you had, just say bye bye to it, unless you can afford a good solicitor and be prepared to prove you weren't negligent. As in a civil court I think (not certain) that the onus of proof is less strict than a criminal court.

 

But as of yet, none of the insurance companies have stepped up with a cover for this ??

 

Now, I may have this all wrong, but that's the way I see it, hope someone can show me an insurance company that will cover 3rd party risks ?

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

Well put Nick I can't afford to take such a chance

It's not just me but my wife and daughter that would feel the impact too

I remember in a previous post the in some other countries it was compulsory to have 3rd party insurance on track days

Can't this be modified for the UK by those companies ??

Another season is almost here with no answer in sight ??

[Hellski]

The real worry here is that pretty much everyone has come to expect to do a track day at their own risk, even if they got run into by someone else. 

 

But now this case has been bought and proven, then there is much more chance of you being sued if something happens. You only have to look at Dave Le Travis's case to realise that you may win in court, but lose your house in costs with no ability to get the money back from the other party, although with a civil case you stand a chance.

 

if you compare this with your position on the road, if you are an idiot and crash into a £ 1 million Bugatti, then your insurance will pay for it, full stop. Do the same on a trackday and the Bugatti driver will be after you for the money. so remember that house you had, just say bye bye to it, unless you can afford a good solicitor and be prepared to prove you weren't negligent. As in a civil court I think (not certain) that the onus of proof is less strict than a criminal court.

 

But as of yet, none of the insurance companies have stepped up with a cover for this ??

 

Now, I may have this all wrong, but that's the way I see it, hope someone can show me an insurance company that will cover 3rd party risks ?

That's the end of Track days for us the punter, track day organisers and will have a serious detrimental financial effect on track owners.

 

I sincerely hope that this is not the case and that the disclaimer we sign at track days stands up in the law of the courts.

 

Insurance claims against third parties don't happen in motorsport, or not to my knowledge, so why should we be subject to it if we've knowingly signed a third party disclaimer on track days???

 

We need to be mindful of the fact that the incident last year was an insurance company trying to recover their costs from the third party, something that had never been done before and no doubt they were testing the waters within case law but fortunately they got their fingers burnt and withdrew the case.  If they had taken all the way and been successful, the effect this would have had for all track day goers and operators world wide would have been devastating.