Should the club have a valuation service

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

Sorry, Darrell - Norman explained what I meant!/how I'd understood you.

[s2rrr]

I was going down this route and even had a valuation completed, assisted  by a well known member with photos on the insurance company paperwork. The thought process being as I had just spent a lot of money on parts and my time to build the car I want it insured so that it will be re-instated back to the standard and specification that I produced it to. My parts receipts actually total more than the intended agreed valuation. When I spoke with the insurance company they said that they could get the parts cheaper and my reply was yes but you would also be paying labour charges. Once I had submitted the paperwork they informed me that I do not need an agreed value as the car was less than a certain age, which I can't remember but it was about 3 years. I subsequently have changed to A plan and fully intend to ensure my car is insured for an amount which means I can have it repaired or rebuilt should an accident occur, when the time arrives. I also do not mind actually paying for it as it is worth more than my tin top.  I think Normans suggestion is a good one and with the correct proof being available in the form of receipts ( IVA folder still intact), a series of photos and basically a valuation from a WSCC official then it is more than achievable. That said the insurance companies are beside themselves trying every trick in the book to avoid payouts and to load people unnecessarily without recourse.

 

Can't see what the problem is apart from the lack of integrity by a group of people attempting to rip off the insurance companies ( getting there own back maybe). That is possibly what Norman is suggesting we avoid.  Some of us have scruples which is more than can be said for some of the Insurers.

 

Bob  

[Norman Verona]

Bob, I've never had a problem with a claim on any of our policies, including the motor trade policies.

 

I think the problem is folk have an idea what the cars worth and it's usually what the price is in the dealers showroom. 

 

With Westfields I would think you MUST get an agreed value otherwise they will offer silly money as they will put a low valuation on it when writing the policy. If we know our way around the insurance business and can do a bit of admin it should be possible to get agreed valuations.

 

Remember you premium will rise with an agreed valuation. 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Do we have any consensus as to whether it's doable/unlikely?

 

Mine is up for renewal in a couple of months so if it's the latter might just need to have a chat with the insurers and try and agree a higher value based mainly on the engine...

[Mark Stanton]

From an old hack, this is a non-starter for anyone from the club to undertake - I don't believe any committee member or AO (WSCC Official) is a fully qualified and recognised / registered dealer / motor-trader / specialist and if it all got legal the qualifications (or lack of) would certainly come into question, many have put the point forward more eloquently and detailed than I.

 

I really would question Normans initial comment as to "most car clubs do" and counter that with most car clubs don't (and with good reason).

 

Norman can you provide a list of most clubs that do ? (from those that do not have any paid employees)

 

If anyone wants an agreed value for insurance it is far easier for you the owner to provide factual information with a full copy of all receipts, detailed specification and photos direct to your insurance company, than it is for a.n. other (WSCC official or not) to provide personal opinion which can easily be countered, in the event of a claim.

 

If you are after a valuation for sale purposes whatever opinion is given, it is only ever worth what the buyer is prepared to pay, I suspect that it is a difficult pill for us all to swallow at times, when we become fully aware that the many thousands we have all spent in getting our pride and joy does not sell for the total build costs -

 

Fact, it is a Westfield kit car and will not increase in value, it is not and never will be a "classic car" - if you were sold or purchased your car as an investment, it perhaps is not a wise one - but a very enjoyable hobby that provides pleasure that money can never buy  

[Norman Verona]

Mark, I was suggesting an insurance only valuation service. Not a Glasses Guide for Westfields. There is no or little risk as the person doing the valuation gets the owners agreement and as long as the insurer accepts it there can be no comeback on the valuation. In most cases it will depend on invoices submitted. You only have to value the standard cars (I know they're all different but the values won't vary that much). Then the extra value is calculated from invoices submitted by the owner. No invoices the value stays as "standard". A few hours a week scanning the ads on here and PH and loaded into a spreadsheet will keep values up to date.

 

Of course the fine details, methods and procedures will have to be negotiated with the insurers.

 

The problem as I see it is that many members have no idea what to insure their cars for and if they do then do not know how to go about it.

 

As for clubs offering valuations, the MG OC and Lotus 7 club do. I also believe the the Morgan and Jaguar clubs do. These clubs, as far as I know, have someone who will do the valuations and that person may or may not be a club member. It's a service the clubs have arranged so the members can benefit. 

 

I think it can be done. It will be a service for members only but not free. An admin charge is usually paid.

 

However if the committee says "no" then it won't happen. If the members don't want or need it then no need to consider it.

 

However, today at least three members have said they feel their cars are undervalued. It would also appear they don't know how to go about getting the cars insured for the correct value. This is why I raised the issue.

[Wile E. Coyote]

As for clubs offering valuations, the MG OC and Lotus 7 club do. I also believe the the Morgan and Jaguar clubs do. These clubs, as far as I know, have someone who will do the valuations and that person may or may not be a club member. It's a service the clubs have arranged so the members can benefit. 

 

Triumph's club does it too: http://www.tssc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=261&Itemid=209

 

2 year valuation certificate costs £12 - they've just dropped the price.  Mine was all done with photos.

IIRC, MGOC's used to be done by their preferred insurers.

[Norman Verona]

That's cheap. The chap who does L7C's wants £25 if I remember correctly.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

An interesting subject but keeping my AO hat firmly on for the moment this is where I am.

First off I read the suggestion that this service should only be offered to "standard" cars, this is fine with Triumphs, MG's and even Lotus 7's to some extent where modifications are obvious but what do you define as being a standard Westfield? Even the modular kits offer so much variation how can we compare the two alike? What about SDV's or maybe narrows that have had their clams replaced with cycle wings? Do we devalue an older classic because it's been fitted with a non original carbon dash? My preference is for comfy seats and carpets, so is that worth more than a pair of Tilletts?

There is IMO just to much variation between our cars to offer a fair and accurate comparison for valuation.

I consider my Westfield knowledge to be be well above the average, but ask me about anything other than a Mazda engine and I will flounder, ask me to value a VX compared to a Zetec and I would be lost long before we even begin to discuss internal engine mods or the benefits of ITB's over carbs.

The other suggestion I see is that we could use Pistonhead's adverts as a guide, but i foresee a problem here as these are only advertised prices not actual sale prices. How often have we seen on our own pages criticism of certain adverts being up for ages and cars unsold or joking at over inflated prices by dealers? i've also seen cars advertised for rock bottom prices and sold almost immediately but then readvertised a few weeks later by the buyer at a much higher price

I'm happy to help any member that comes to me for advice, but I am well aware of my own limitations and the extents of my own knowledge. i have no motor trade background, have never worked in insurance and therefore would not feel confident working outside of my comfort zone making comment on something so critical that is both financially critical for the owner as well as a buyer or insurer but also the risk that my decision would place the club under should I make a misjudged error.

I'd like us to have a club to enjoy for many future years to come. I would never by my actions wish to be involved in anything that as an AO places the club in a position of risk or liability where they could be exposed to legal action either from another member by devaluing their car, or from their insurer.

i'm sure you've guessed by now, but to the question as an AO would I be happy to value other members cars the answer is most definitely no.

[Norman Verona]

mark, the basic value of a kit with minor variations will be about the same, not enough to worry about. The cars which have had expensive upgrades require invoices to substantiate the increase in value. Add both together and you have a value to work on. Insurance agreed values are to the nearest £1000 and will never be fully accurate, even for a bog standard MGB. However it will give the owner peace of mind that he knows what he will get if it's stolen or damaged beyond economical repair. 

 

The insurance industry have a formula for calculating the sale price from an advertised price. You also discard the highly modified cars as you're only looking for standard cars with minor upgrades. Ignore the highest and lowest prices for a "standard" car and deduct a percentage and you won't be far out. Let's put it another way. If the current value is £7000 and the valuer agrees £11,000 with the insurer (for which the insured pays extra premium) would the insured be happier?

 

As I said above, if the club doesn't want or need a valuation service be it from a club member or an outside source then it won't happen.  However if it is needed and wanted my view is that nothings impossible and we only have challenges which we can overcome.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Norman, i feer that as a non westfield owner you may not be aware of how much option and variation there is within a full westfield kit bought from the factory. This is not a Carterham where everything is the same, instead there is a lot which is left to the builder to choose or source themselves. Many of these options are not obvious and can amount to several 000's of pounds.

It's all well and good saying this would only be an estimate and for insurance only but the club would have no control over how this document is used and i sould see plently advertising there cars for sale and quoting a club valuation within their blurb.

[dombanks]

i still dont get the difference between a valuation and an advert asking price. Aplan themselves said to me when i asked what i should do for my guaranteed value (hence norms suggestion for a valuation service) that i whoudl send pictures and adverts for cars of a similar spec/age/milage and this would be passed to the team for the agreement.

 

maybe such a document would only have a certain period of validation like an insurance quote.

 

i also dont see what effect it would have on the club to have a list of places around the country that are capable of doing this. It wouldnt have to be endorsed by the club. it wouldnt have to be run by the club other than the list being kept upto date.

[Norman Verona]

Mark, but you're answering your own query. If Mr Smith buys a kit and then spends a substantial sum on the other parts he will have the invoices to make valuation easy.

 

I may not own a Westfield but I understand how they're built.

[Captain Colonial]

For the reasons already stated and a number of others not mentioned, I'm relatively confident that the club does not wish to start or offer a valuation service, but would be happy to find a reputable company that would offer the service to members at a fair price.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Mark, but you're answering your own query. If Mr Smith buys a kit and then spends a substantial sum on the other parts he will have the invoices to make valuation easy.

 

but the person that buys it off him may not have the benifit of that and nor will the committee member or AO attempting to offer a valuation for it.  It's easier when the kit is new, but less so when those "uprgades" have been fitted to the car for 5/10/15 years.