Speed Series - List 1B, aeroscreens, dog-boxes

[gee_fin]

As discussed in the thread Speed Series Regs - Dog Boxes & Sequentials, here's a poll to gauge what the interest would be in a new class in the Speed Series.

The suggestion is for a class where you can run ACB10s/A032s/CR500s (List 1B tyres), gearbox is free (allowing dog-boxes - sequential or otherwise, alloy cases etc), aeroscreens, modified chassis etc. are all allowed but the car must be road-legal, taxed and MOTd.

Would there be enough interest to justify the class? Would costs spiral as they have in the current road-legal class?

I'm looking at it from the point of view that I want to run an aeroscreen and ACB10s on the road and I'm too lazy to keep swapping back for a sprint!

Graeme.

[I.S.M]

Graeme, you missed one other option, "If Dad says so"

But i am in favour of that, at least then there will be no confusion about regulations for that class, if you think your man enough on road rubber, then move to that class!

Will this not eventually eliminate the current (supposidley-spelt wrong-#### you Caxton) road classes tho?

[Al Yupright]

Would this mean bike engined cars were allowed in this class?

[gee_fin]

I wouldn't think so, and if it would then scrap the whole idea. The road-going class is the best supported and most successful in the whole series, I just think the spread of cars is soooo wide.

My thinking is on three fronts -

1. The well developed cars in the current road-going class have moved the goal posts to the point where people just starting out in standardish cars may get disallusioned about the large gap to the front.

Running a dog-box is hardly keeping the car as a road car anymore and I can see why people may object. "Spirit of the rules" and all that but let's face it, a straight-cut box can be a pain on the road, any dog-box is extreme at best and a sequential is taking the p***.

Of the top five cars in novice/expert 1700/1700+ class I would be surprised if any do more than 1500 miles a year on the road.

2. More and more people run aeroscreens and ACB10s/AO32s on the road these days. The only reason I ran RE720s so long was purely for sprinting. In the end it was another set of rims, another set of tyres and swapping between the two for trackdays/sprints ie. more money out.

Swapping from a radial tyre to a crossply is a whole setup change if you're doing it right, it's not simply a case of changing rims on the day.

3. Currently, the only option is to slap on some soft hillclimb slicks and go battle it out with Derek and Steve. If the regs stay this way I'll happily do this, but it means another set of tyres, another set of rims, taking off lights, indicators etc to save weight, changing the suspension to cope with the super soft tyres etc. etc. Not really appealing.

As things stand I would just slap on the slicks, dial the setup as best as possible and deal with. Would expect to be waaaay down on the times and really be in the class just for the sake of it. Not really that appealing.

Anyways, it's just a healthy debate to see what everyone feels. There are a few of us in class limbo right now and it may be fairer to shove us either into the higher class or create a class that suits us  

Graeme.

[gee_fin]

Sorry, it took so long to write that reply, the "shouldn't think so" was in reference to Jamie's reply not yours!

I think the bike engined class currently allows aeroscreens and A032s as they are factory standard.

I personally wouldn't mind the bikes coming into the class but that's a whole nother can of worms

Graeme.

[ACW]

Graeme,

I think I like some of these ideas. I think classification of the road class to a tighter factory road car type spec would be good for the road class and then a different classs for those with road monsters who still want to compete in a road legal car.

If it turns out my box is illegal I have the choice of competeing, as I am, in the modified or taking the car off the road. I dont believe there are any modified cars that are driven on the road even with a mod of tyres etc.. Since I use my car for road use (over 2K miles last year) I dont really want to turn my car full racer. I would probably end up biting a bullet in the wallet any buying a 'legal' H-pattern dog box.

I think the answer is as you propose a road going class where the engine is in some way standardised, the gearbox be helical cut H pattern of 5000 units of similar production. The car be trimmed fully list 1A tyres of factory standard sizes, full size tanks etc, wet sumps

Whilst a builder may find he needs to trim the car, change the tyre size and put a standard box back in the car this is penuts compared to what is been spent by most in the 'Road' classes.

Then most of us in 'nutter' road cars could compete in a more anything goes class with the important factor we have to be road legal.

Food for thought ....

[SteveD]

mmmmmmmmm could be in for a nice sequential box here me thinks

[Mark Stanton]

Some good ideas there to work on - whilst the Speed Series was initially aimed at getting folks out there and on the track - it must still continue to develop and cater for those drivers that wish to take it on to the next level.

Remember the SS is only in its fourth year, so any new initiatives would help us all on our learning curve and for continued success.

Obviously there's not a lot that can be done for this year as the regs are registered with the MSA permit issued.

But you can bet your last dollar there'll be some updates and evolution for 2003    

[Blatman]

I'd like to see a "Road Modified" class too.

"Road Car" class would be along the lines of: full windscreens, list 1a, two seats (but not necessarilly full carpets/trim), seat belts, current MOT and tax, no dog/sequential/6 speed boxes, (ie allow S/C synchro boxes).

"Road Modified" would be along the lines of: aeroscreens allowed, list 1b, dog boxes/sequential/6 speed allowed, but retain a second seat, current MOT and tax.

I've added 6 speed boxes, 'cos I don't think any road going newcomers in Westfields would bother to fit a c******m 6 speeder, and it's a serious investment not in keeping with "converting" novices in "standard" road cars to sprinting.

Road Modifieds should retain MOT's and tax, 'cos they are still supposed to be road cars..........

[guy g]

I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point.

The first thing to consider is - Do you want the WSS to run alongside the other speed championships or not? If you do then you have to abide by the rules, which are pretty standard amongst the major championships.

If you change the WSS rules then you will no longer be able to run with the national classes (ie. 2a & b). In my view that would be pretty stupid. If Westfields can't compete against everyone else then it's a pretty poor show. This would also mean that anyone who wanted to compete in say the Midland or the Leaders couldn't compete in the WSS -so less interest in the WSS.

The WSS has been very successful so far. For God's sake don't spoil it by isolating it from the rest of the world!! And don't hassle Tom about it either. He is now in danger of letting some of you silly people who hadn't read the regulations/blue book run sequential boxes so as not to upset you by saying you can't. All this will do will be to upset the vast majority who do want to stick to the rules.

Many of us looked at the sequential gear box option 2 years ago when they first came out, then looked at the rules and found that thay are not allowed.

Classes 2A and B are "Road modified kit cars", they are not Road Cars, certain modifications are allowed, others are not. Whether or not you agree with the rule, or whatever the reasons they are there, you have to stick to them. END OF STORY -NOT OPEN TO DEBATE.

If you want to lobby for future rule changes, leave Tom alone (his job is hard enough), lobby the organisers of National championships such as the Midland Speed and the Leaders.

On the personal front I think the Road modified classes would all be much more fun with aeroscreens, list 1B tyres etc. I also think the real advantage of the sequential box is not the change but the 6 speeds you are able to stuff into it. But the rules allow none of this, so that's the end of that!

It is interesting though that most of the guys you see week after week competing at events just get on with it within the rules.

Guy

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Guy,

I agree entirely with you on this one, but the WSCC SS classes have already been altered to upto 1800cc and over. This is already a step away from the norm everywhere else.

John

[Nick M]

The "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach only works for a given amount of time though.  

To give a comparison with sailing, which I do rather a lot of, particular classes have good periods and bad periods, depending on how competitive or costly they are to compete in.  For example, the Melges 24 is a stunning boat to sail - fast, modern, manouverable, close racing, not that expensive to buy, etc..  But within 12 months of them appearing in this country the class had changed from one where people would win purely on superior boat speed (better sails, more time on the water) to one where the racing was so close that you only stood a chance of winning if you didn't make any mistakes.  This was an excellent time to be in the class because it was truly competitive and the racing was close.

But then people decided that, in order to win, they needed to invest in expensive sail development programmes (we ended up taking new sails to practically every event) and in semi or fully professional crew and helmsmen.  This then made it hard for the amateur to compete (time and money against them) so they turned to other classes for their sailing kicks.  Gradually the Melges class became almost entirely semi-pro until the arms race reached another plateau, whereby people started leaving the fleet.  It's now a case that, in order to get any decent racing you need to travel a lot and that's just not practical for most amateurs (time and money again) so the class is on the decline.  Throughout all this time the technical regs remained the same, the only difference was the investment in things like sails and the people sailing the boats.

Now, take the Dragon class.  It's a classic design that's been around since the 50's that has seen constant, but controlled, development of the technical regs, such that someone can enter the class with an old (cheap) boat and, while maybe not win races very often, still gets good racing within their section of the fleet.  As and when they can afford it they invest in a new boat / sails and they race higher up the fleet, possibly challenging for wins, etc.  The good thing, however, is that buying a new boat is no guarantee of success - it's not an arms race.

The increase to 1800cc for the smaller category is proof that changes can be made without causing chaos.  If it encourages those people who were sitting on the fence to come and compete then great.  But I pretty much guarantee that some people are put off by seeing highly developed cars which they have no hope of competing with.

If there was an interim between the existing road going class and the modified division then maybe current competitors might be tempted to move up step by step, rather than having to take a major plunge and convert a road going car to all out racer.  It might equally appeal to those who can't be bothered to mess about swapping wheels, suspension settings, refitting screens, etc. but who just want a bit of fun.  In fact I'd put myself into this category.

So, what was the point of all that waffle ??  Basically, if the rules stay the same, you risk scaring off the beginner and the class will stagnate.  Give people some room for development and things should be sustainable in the long term and the whole series will go from strength to strength.

[GeorgeMartin]

I would like to see the true Road going cars (std gearboxes and relatively std engines) in there own class it would make things more interesting with different people winning (Always good for the overall championship standings), and being able to compete competitively on a budget.  Maybe there could be a ‘Road Modified Class’ BUT still allow the ‘Road Going Class’ to stay as it is for next year, this way people could decide to enter which class they choose. The difference between them would only be Tyres and Aeroscreens. This will mean all competitors can keep ‘In the spirit of Sprinting’ and enter the car they want to run (Not have to change/modify things just to go sprinting) but if you want to run a dominant car in the existing Road Going class you can.

An additional class for modified road cars would appeal to many and surely increase the WSS popularity rather than hinder it. I have no desire to enter a class were I have to continually  remove and change parts, as I like doing miles on the road I also don’t want to make mine a purely modified race car to compete with the likes of Derek and Steve B.

With more and more people using aeroscreens (how many new cars are sold with windscreens?) and List 1B tyre on the road. This brings the question is it fair to segregate these owners from the WSS championship. Is it not meant to be an evolving series that caters for the owners of these cars? It works for c******m’s in a many different Speed Championships why not for Westfield’s!?!

On the subject of more work for Tom, yes this would be an unfortunate consequence, but I for one, I would be more than happy to offer any help I could. Besides there is nothing to say that there will ever be a new class added anyway.

[ACW]

Guy is very correct, If we are to participate in many sprints as we will this year it is important that we keep the class boundaries very close to MSA classes. If we fail to do this then we will be winning event classes for which we compete at a different level.

However, with regard to such a contriversial purchase as seq 6 speed I did plough through my blue book cover to cover several times. after many hours reading in the bath I even asked Tom for his 'personal' opinion of the rules.

Unfortunately I aint no soliciter and much of the blue book seems to allow for some reading of rules in many ways with one particular meaning been the one intendend and judged upon but again assuming we are cat B kit cars then this is not an issue either.

I am not trying to break any rules or even bend exiting rules. If someone points me to the rule then fair do I out of here and I change me class or me box.

Talking to many people on this one (I did quite a bit of reasearch before buying the box I believe that two years ago the blue book banned sequential boxes)

   

[Mark Stanton]

Yep although we must continually look at improvements and continued developments - essentially a road-going class must remain that road-going as original manufacture -

Now, Westfield manufacture and have copyrighted the SE, SEi silohouette and that includes a windscreen.

The problem lies as Guy states with other championships not having such specific knowledge and allowing aeroscreens in road-going - thats fine for the Mega range - but not as far as the original Se and Sei cars.

Sequential - yes they were a "stopped" quite outright and to the point in road-going by the MSA. But check your Blue Book for 2002 - it is open to interpretation and no longer a black and white issue.

Perhaps it should be time to petition the MSA to show the direction and state catergorically yes or no.

The SS regs will  surely be adjusted for 2003. But until we resolve the issue fully and weigh up all the pros and cons without predjudice or bias we cannot get a true picture.

We've only had two events in 2002 and just take a look at the postings already - to gather a full perspective on the matter we must have some experience on what effect certain items have e.g a sequential box.

To simply add another class may weaken the competitive edge class 1c and 2c ?? With those drivers being noted as non-road-going modified at certain events. e.g with the use of non list 1a tyres.

With the amending of up to 1700 now going up to 1800 this is merely in line with the general event rules and modern engine development -

and honestly a well tuned and sorted 1700 X-Flow is very capable of producing more than sufficient BHP to cope with the output of an 1800 zetec.

This is sprinting and hillclimbing - where set-up and power usage has far more affect than overall grunt in the appropriate classes.