Now look here, Argentina...

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

It keeps a lot of people in work, Norman. And a good deal of the money stays within UK. I abhor war as much as anyone, but have a sneaking suspicion that a good defence force for a country with our history is not a bad thing. If you have a long standing image of keeping a low profile and minding your own business like Switzerland or Sweden, it's okay to have an army of three blokes and a dog, but we peed off a lot of people over the years and the grudges are still borne.

[Norman Verona]

That may be the case, but who's going to atack us. We could throw our lot into the European Defence force and save billions.

 

The point about whether the money stays in the UK or not isn't valid when we have no money to look after our weak and vulnerable.

 

After the first world war we had a 10 year rule. It said that we could downgrade our military as we would have 10 years to re-arm if another state was re-arming to attack us. It wasn't far wrong, we had just about 10 years but ignored all the broken treaties and massive rearmament which was also against treaty obligations.

 

Yes, terrorists may well attack us, they already did. But a huge armed force cannot help in that, only good intelligence can and we do very well at that.

 

The fact that a lot of people are employed is not the only cost. If we stopped recruiting tomorrow we could slim down over the next 5-10 years, reduce the civil servant element and the equipment element as we go and the money can be put to far better use. Surely it's a false economy to keep on spending billions each year just because it employs people. With all the cuts so far made has there been any government policy that will reduce the size of any department? I haven't seen any.

 

Why did you have to start me off.    

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

But the last administration employed almost a million extra civil servants over their period in office... There's a good place to start the economies as the civil service worked very much the same as before their appointment. They served to reduce unemployment though.

 

Is it the anarchists who say it doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always wins? I have sometimes wondered if the whole party politics and democracy thing isn't a fraud. There are things that need to be done that are unpopular so one group of politicians, nominally in office, carry them out. They, for their actions, are seen to be apparently voted out of office after four or five years and the other group gets the job on the promise (never kept) that the evils of the last administration will be rectified. Instead, other unpopular things are done and so the cycle continues. There is no democracy in this scenario, only a game of musical chairs where everyone in Government gets a go at being unpopular every five years. No real parties, only a carousel of professional administrators whose policies are designed by a hidden committee.

 

Bartender! Another Scotch please - large...

[funky munky]

loss of life is always a bad thing, we didn't start the war but out brave guys finished it,if only those Vulcans could carry enough fuel to bomb Argentinas air bases it might have saved more of our peoples lives.

[Norman Verona]

Agreed about our party system. It wasn't like this when politicians were paid  a pittance and no expenses. The politicians of those days did the job because they wanted to serve. There was a party system but the core politicians were there because they wanted to make things better.

 

Now, well they seem to me to be totally self serving and only do things that keep them in office so they can milk as much as they can from us.

 

I can't see how we can change it now as they are all the same.

 

Needs a new party to come along. Anyone want to join my Common Sense Party?

 

 

It makes me really mad when they tell us that we're in a financial jam and we've all got to suffer and do nothing to reduce the cost of government. Maybe if the ministers were paid more for reducing the headcount in their departments we'd get somewhere. In the meantime it's the poorer who are paying the price of useless politicians and greedy bankers.

[Norman Verona]

Funky Munkey, Like most wars it was totally unnecessary. It could have been prevented. But, as usual, we applauded those that didn't prevent it in the first place because they won the war and lots of people were killed and maimed.

 

Will we ever learn? Probably not.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I am not especially left-leaning but I have socialist views on some matters and, therefore, cannot say that I am dedicated follower of any party. I deeply resent the country being taken for a ride by anyone; benefit cheats to MPs. The last visibly sincere politicians were mainly on the Labour benches - and generally left wing. I didn't/don't share their views but I admired their courage in propounding true socialist policies regardless of the loss of votes for doing it. There have been/are Tory MPs who have sacrificed popularity for principle too; David Davis could be said to be one such. These are very much exceptions in the world of the professional politician. Until these people return to the majority I fear for the future of decent government. Sadly, in this age of wall-to-wall sensational entertainment and the desire for instant solutions to everything, it isn't likely to happen.

[funky munky]

Norman I agree that prevention is always better than cure, would the Argies have listened ? deploying a great big nasty frigate thingy might have made them think twice.

 

Sign me up for the common sense party not enough of that in Parliament

[cidersurfer]

Maybe HMS Dauntless will take another cruise around the area, the type 45 has a few tricks up her sleeve...

[Norman Verona]

FM, the point is that the Argentinians invaded because there was no one there to stop them. Had we had a few RN ships on station they wouldn't have. The PM was told this but still insisted on removing these ships. 

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

FM, the point is that the Argentinians invaded because there was no one there to stop them. Had we had a few RN ships on station they wouldn't have. The PM was told this but still insisted on removing these ships. 

 

But, but, in your view we should chop the forces vigorously so not only would there not be any RN presence, but we wouldn't be able to kick them out either! The nature of unexpected threats is that you don't see them coming!

[Norman Verona]

I didn't say reduce to zero. Anyway, the Falklands problem should have been taken to the UN as it should now.

 

If we can't afford basics for the people who really need it (not the lazy, workshy spongers) then how do you justify the billions spent on our armed services when there is no threat to us at all.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

The working people used to have gainful employment to go to in factories. Now we farm out our mass manufacturing to the Far East so that the unqualified, and frankly unqualifiable who once could be at least labourers in factories, cannot find work other than burger flipping. We are to blame for not ensuring that what we buy is even European, let alone British thereby condemning the few British manufacturers to taking production overseas. For years I tried to avoid buying Chinese goods because I didn't like the morals of the regime - using prisoners, etc., to make cheap goods and having no workers rights for the rest. I got a lot of funny looks from staff in Curry's, Comet etc., when I was turning up toasters and kettles to read the maker's origin beneath - frequently coded as PRC. Now it is impossible to avoid Chinese goods so like many others I don't try any more. My only remaining protest is to boycott French apples because of the way that the French government supported the growers in destroying British apple growers. It makes me feel better... When I was a child 'Made in England' was everywhere and foreign stuff was avoided as inferior. no longer.

 

It is not the job of government to employ the workers in pointless posts to soak up the jobless, but to foster the climate of industry with taxes and incentives that help industry to flourish. German industry is fit and well compared with ours - why?

[Norman Verona]

German industry is fit and well compared with ours - why?

 

 

I would say it's because their businesses are run better. If a company in Germany wants bank funds they have to accept a bank official on the board. They run their business on very strict financial controls.

 

And, the other thing is the German work ethic. The people work hard and do a good days work for a good days pay. In Germany an Engineer is a respected profession, in the UK an Engineer is thought of as a car mechanic.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

That's true Norman, it has irritated me for a long time that what should rightly be called technicians are labelled engineers. Too many accountants and lawyers in the boardroom, methinks...