3 Sisters & Championship Points

[Paul Aspden]

Firstly, well done to all the guys at three sisters, looks like some impressive driving with a few target times being beaten.

I have however spotted what I think is a flaw in the target times.

With the decission having been made to adopt STE's for those times which were felt to be soft, we have ended up in a situation with a competitor in class D (John Hoyle) beating a competitor in class F (ACW), but getting fewer points due to their being a target time in F and an STE in D.

Whilst I understand how STE's were adopted, I don't agree with the princiles used, as in my opinion, the previous years system should have remained in place, allowed to run its course, and over time, things would have evened themselves out.

I realise that there was an argument that a poorly subscribed class with "soft " target times may have yeilded an "unworthy?" champion, but this system now appears to be penalising a fast driver.

As this is early season, it may well be the case that this situation will repeat itself, and whilst it is undesirable, I would not expect any action to be taken. Neither would I want Target times revised at the end of the year, other than for those new time posted. This event has also highlighted the fact that BEC's are quicker than CEC's at some venues, with class G cars beating H.

Food for thought for the SSOT....

[Terry Everall]

Paul

I spotted that as well and have spoken to Nick about it as it does not seem right for overalll championship points.

When we return to 3 sisters on the other layout class H has STE so the winner may score 100 points with a slower time than G.

Cant think of a solution though unless to score 100 they equal or beat the lower class ( in this case G )

[Mid life crisis]

I would have thought that clearly the class "F" time as it has been beaten by Class "D" must be considered as soft and the lower class time should be the benchmark for the awarding of championship points in "F" as should be the case in "G" recording a faster time than "H"

If you enter a higher class with the advantage of less regulations on the modifications allowed in that class, and then are are beaten by a lower class car. Then you are simply not quick enough at that event on the day, to justify the full championship points and must be measured against the fastest target time by the lower class cars.

Not on someones opinion of what may be soft times at the beginning of the season, but a progressive, evolving and changing target time at each event, dependent on the prevailing weather and track conditions.

If this was not the case, certain classes may be considered as protected, regardless as to how competitive they were overall in the championship through the awarding of points. Which may result in the validity of the overall championship winner being questioned.

What a dogs dinner

Never used to be a problem with first past the post

I await the exotica next year with windscreens entering A, B, C and D :d

[woodman]

I think the reason that both C and D have STE at this 3 sisters event is because we do not have times set by this spec of car to use.

The old times would have been on list 1A tyres(A-D) or without screens.(E-F)

We now have times that can be used next year for D

Please note that the winner of Class F was faster than Class D

[mhc]

Regarding target times ,I do believe that you are all missing a few points.( )

1. Existing target times will always be beaten when a new and better tyre becomes avalible, and is used agressively as in the case of the Avon ZZR.

So for all those competing in the road going classes who wish to win, you will now need two set of wheels and tyres.

ZZRs for the short circuit events when the ambient temps are low , and maybe the right grade Kuhmo when its very hot and a long circuit.

Fair play to John Hoyle it was a stirring drive but he was very closely followed by Richard Kerr.

And just to paraphrase President Clinton, its the tyres stupid.

G class cars at the right event are now unbeatable, so their target times for next year will be lowered.

If it carries on in this way then all events will be 100 pointers and then it has almost reverted to first pass the post on the day.

Which is where we came in.

Final thought for the day,if it works why change it.

[woodman]

The Class changes to to WSCC were brought in when the MSA allowed list 1Bs into roadgoing classes.

Previously a car such as John Hoyles would have to have competed in Class F.

The new Class C+D were created to allow cars that may not have sequential gearboxes to have a chance of class honours in the WSCC.

The Class C/E and D/F cars are always going to be very close because , as MHC states, the tyres are the same and there is no limit on power.

I still think that, in these days of smaller entries in classes on the day , it would be a mistake to revert back to first past post because there is often only one competitor from a WSCC class at some events. This person could score the same as someone breaking a national record in another class regardless of the time set

[mhc]

The Class changes to to WSCC were brought in when the MSA allowed list 1Bs into roadgoing classes.

Previously a car such as John Hoyles would have to have competed in Class F.

The new Class C+D were created to allow cars that may not have sequential gearboxes to have a chance of class honours in the WSCC.

The Class C/E and D/F cars are always going to be very close because , as MHC states, the tyres are the same and there is no limit on power.

I still think that, in these days of smaller entries in classes on the day , it would be a mistake to revert back to first past post because there is often only one competitor from a WSCC class at some events. This person could score the same as someone breaking a national record in another class regardless of the time set

Stuart sorry to be pedantic but the initial WSSs class changes to the old 2b class were made to accommodate aero screens and sequential gearboxes, not tyres.

Its only recently that list 1b tyres are now mandatory in both D and F and most road going classes.

There are now less than 65 cars entered in the WSSs.

Why?

It can't only be finacial restraints.

And tell me, whats wrong if someone makes the effort in time and money to enter an event and on the day they are the only entrant.

Therefore scoring maximum points.

Thats not their fault, its a problem for the other competitors in their championship.

You have to be in it to win it.

You cannot penalize against endevour and reward apathy there is already too much of that in life never mind motorsport.

[woodman]

Mick

IIRC - The old A/B/C/D all ran on list 1A with screens and could also use dog box(A+B were novice, C+D were expert)

E/F ran on list 1b with aeroscreen and any box

With the intro of free use of list 1b in roadgoing classes it was felt that some of the more standard roadgoing cars were being penalised by being made to run against to highly developed class E+F cars.

Hence the classes were changed to reflect spec/ gearboxes /tyres etc and the new class C+D slotted in between the standard cars on list 1a and the e/f cars.

If we still had the old system then I think Johns car, because of tyres would have been in F, where he would have been second to Barry S

I disagree with you point about a single competitor scoring max points with first past post because it would be unfair to popular classes with close competition

[Mid life crisis]

Stuart A,B,C,D were popular classes before target times were introduced. If memory serves me correctly in the case of only 1 car in class the max points were 16.5 only rising to 17 if there were 3 cars or more. Not saying the exact points awarded were right, but it could have been a good starting point.

[woodman]

Steve

Yes ABCD were quite popular when i first started.

However , I think the intro of 1bs into roadgoing hasnt helped.

It was difficult for more powerfull cars to make full use of their power due to traction, so less powerfull ones, like your X/flow could still be competitive on the day. Whereas now with the latest ZZR/Khumho they can be almost as quick as slick shod .

Even though the WSCC has still got list 1a classes they are not competitive on the day

I think this is putting the occasional competitor off having a go along with the start-up cost of having to have the correct overalls/helmet/gloves etc

I do not think it is anything to do with target times.

The original post has raised a point about scoring that can be looked into to see if an improvement can be made.

[mhc]

The Class changes to to WSCC were brought in when the MSA allowed list 1Bs into roadgoing classes.

Previously a car such as John Hoyles would have to have competed in Class F.

The new Class C+D were created to allow cars that may not have sequential gearboxes to have a chance of class honours in the WSCC.

The Class C/E and D/F cars are always going to be very close because , as MHC states, the tyres are the same and there is no limit on power.

I still think that, in these days of smaller entries in classes on the day , it would be a mistake to revert back to first past post because there is often only one competitor from a WSCC class at some events. This person could score the same as someone breaking a national record in another class regardless of the time set

Stuart , Marshall Rowland scored the most points at 3 sisters .

Is he not a worthy winner being the only entrant in that class?

And John Hoyles car was always an MSA 2b car running on 1a tyres the only item that has been changed are the tyres which are now ZZRs

[woodman]

Yes Marshall is a worthy winner because he smashed the TT, regardless of how many other competitors in his class

With first past post, If , for instance ,if he was 10 seconds slower he would have scored the same.

Surely Marshalls result proves that if a lone competitor drives his socks off then he is justly rewarded,( with the old system Marshall would not have scored max points wich would have been unfair to him)

With first past post, I could have gone to 3 sisters, in Class A spec, driven round in first gear , come last in class 2a on the day and still scored max points!!

I am not sure of the point you are making about Johns car?

If we had the old class system would Johns car have automaticly been in F because of tyres, Regardless of MSA 2b?

[mhc]

Most of the current F class cars started out as 2b cars prior to the introduction of WSSs own F class and the dilution of all the other classes.

In those days there was only ABCD.

John's car has always been a old 2b car and never would have been a F car.

Now John is in a fine position to capitalize on that to become not only a class winner but dare I say it ( overall champion).

Right tyres , right car ,right driver that's my head on the block, but its still early days.

Regarding Marshall and first pass the post.

He posts a time quicker than the Target Time and gets more points than some one who breaks the outright record, hopefully this is just a one off.

At least first pass the post puts them both level on points, unless there is a bonus for outright records.

Stuart ,my fingers are now getting very tired and worn down.

Time for a cuppa.

[pete g]

dont damage them baking fingers

[Terry Everall]

I believe that class J3 entrants such as marshall cannot win the overall championsip