do you think they are right?

[combatsapph]

^pokes head in thread^

I'm a TU rep and my wife is a teacher (who was on strike yesterday)

^removes head out of thread^

[Doug Dastardly]

I think that much of the problems and ill feeling stem from lack of knowledge and information.

My gut feeling is that if public sector workers don't like their pensions, they are welcome to a defined contribution pension in stead of their average salery. But I don't really know all the facts.

When people strike or complain about pay / pensions nobody (including the media) actually say what the current pay is. How can I support a claim for more pay (which I have to cough up for as a taxpayer) when I don't know what the current pay is?

Looking at my friends though, the public employees seem to work less hard for less hours, have more holidays and while some moan about pay and conditions, others think they've got it easy.

Another point that needs clarifing is the difference between deficit and debt. All this talk of reducing the deficit in the next couple of years sound good, but I worry that lots of people think that this IS the debt, which in fact is growing all the time

From where I sit the difference between us and Greece / Italy is slim and needs to tackled fast. Life will get much harder if the UK looses its credit rating and has to start paying more interest, instead of paying off debt. This took a couple of decades of government mismanagement to come to a head, its not going to be fixed overnight.

For my part I'm prepared to pay more taxes, but not by myself. I'd like to see the welfare state tightened up first though. My friends and I talked about this one night and could list lots of people getting some 'help' that we felt did not deserve it.

And all these people who are too old to work past 65, I completly understand your point of view because it will be no picnic for me and my employees working on past then to support you. We're all in this mess together.

For what it's worth, I got my pension statement in this week and..............opening balance+contributions= less than opening balance+contributions

I guess I don't have much sympathy after all.

Ramble over.

doug

[perksy]

Not all public sector workers earn alot of money for changing light bulbs or wandering around with their finger up their a**

Some of us work hard and get covered in s***e on a regular basis

If it wasn't for the engineers keeping the hospitals going (sometimes with little resources) then they would come to a grinding halt

Trust me some things we have to deal with on a regular basis would make most of you throw up and disappear into the distance and i'm sure Nikpro has the same issues

Turnover of staff is rising as folk have had enough and are moving back into the private sector

So we really must be living the Good life then        

(Some places are even having to look at a retention payment to keep staff)

But funny enough some of us still beleive in what the NHS stands for, even though it seems appreciated by so few people

One part of the governments proposal will see a Nurse born after 1990 retiring at 70 years of age

So there's a thought, in a few years a nurse with a zimmer frame looking after patients    

Some folk with private pensions seem to be moaning at public sector workers because their own pensions are performing so badly

As a few folk have said previously to us, get on with it...

[Carl]

QUOTE

BUT......we must remember... MOST OF US who have these toys / Westfields / Porsches etc etc are in full time work....... many millions are not in work.... some dont want to work but a great many do...... the whole country is effected and will be for the next few years and we all have to make cut backs... or adjust lifestyle choices to suit

 

It is kind of ironic that on a "Toy Sports Car Forum" we are discussing "hard times and suffering"

Shall we invite someone who cannot afford any car to come and join in the discussion.

p.s. my wifes a teacher and for once I agree with Steve D.

[nikpro]

I pay 11%; soon to be 14% into my pension - a lot higher than the figures given for other public sector work

Mention the benefits aswell Frazer. An accrual rate of 30ths, meaning you can retire after 30 yrs on a full 2/3 salary pension, being paid to you for a good ten years longer than other public sector pensions.

It's actually a 60ths scheme - first twenty years you get 1/60 per annum then in the last ten years you accrue 1/60th every six months.

The Pension is good - I can't argue but we pay a lot in to get that back and the average length of time a retired Police Officer draws his pension is eight years at present (It has gone up from five years from when I joined).

The Police Pension scheme was changed for new recruits in 2007 to sustain the pensions - why does it need reviewed again so soon after?

It's a very complex arguement and I can see it from both sides.

As much as Private sectors workers cry 'f**k you ours has changed!' they also had the choice to be employed in the Public sector when they started their careers.

Just because one is wrong doesn't mean the other should follow IMO.

Anyway......lots could be said but it won't be sorted here; there are good reasons from both sides but the workforce should not be split - that's what the Government want when the Pensions defecit has really very little to do with people living longer but more to do with gross miss-management of the economy/country.

I would be all in favour of new Public sector workers having to take out a private pension and no pension provisions being provided by the government but don't change the goalosts halfway through.

For exactly that reason Private sector workers feel 'hard done to' on their own pensions and quite rightly so.

[SteveD]

so basically stop moaning and get on with it

[SteveH]

Well not surprising really that (for the most part) people are on the side that their work dictates; public sector want their pensions to remain intact, private sector doesn't want to pay for them!

We could all find different uses for government money and move things around but saying that they should bin something else to pay the pensions isn't very persuasive, it's just avoiding what is a pretty universally acknowledged problem -  we are living longer and claiming more than was expected when the system was set up.

Is it fair that some workers took a particular job based on the promise of a certain pension which may now change?  No, probably not, but on the other hand when public sector wages started catching up with private sector ones I don't remember anyone refusing to take the extra salary, when life expectancies grew nobody has offered to stick to just drawing a pension for the average number of years that someone would have expected to have been retired for when they started work - because if it's about fairness, that would be fair and in keeping with the agreement they had with the government..............

To the teachers that will have to work till you are 68, at least you'll have thirteen weeks a year on full pay to recover from it, better than those who are self-employed and don't get any holiday pay at all; the extra three years suck for all of us.

To the firemen, you may not be able to do your job when you are in your sixties, find another one same as the rest of us would have to.  I understand that you think it is unfair that you have served your country in a dangerous profession on the promise of an early retirement but really, you expect to retire at 50 on good money and probably exceed the average life expectancy so you would end up drawing a pension far longer than you ever worked for?  You think that's fair?

It's tough, but it's tough on all of us right now, you have to take a share.

[V 8]

Sorry Frazer, mixed me 30ths with me 30 years. Fook me, coppers die early, must be summat in the water

[nikpro]

Sorry Frazer, mixed me 30ths with me 30 years. Fook me, coppers die early, must be summat in the water

It's the stress you b*******s give us!!      

[greenandmean]

In answer to the OP don't know about being right or not but there does not seem to be as lot of sympathy from this particular forum.

As for all the cries about pay been frozen or a 1% rise here in the real world I and lots of others had to take a 7.5% pay cut three and a half years ago, loss of all bonuses and travel allowances, agree or redundancies will have to follow, (no pressure then) oh and no company pension scheme at all.

Throw into the equation that if last year is any indication, I can look forward to spending at least part of the next 4 months working outdoors in minus 10 degree temperatures you would be forgiven for thinking I may be less than sympathetic towards most public sector workers.

[Lurksalot]

I don't begrudge anyone a pension , if it's been negotiated fair enough.

but what really gets my goat is the the likes of a lot of people (and I know of a number of ex public servants , council , teachers, firemen et al )  who having retired at a reasonable age on a reasonable pension , then decide to get another job  

I really don't get that , go and do voluntary work if you need to get out of the house , but leave a job free for someone else to have a go , you had your turn and decided to 'retire' .  some sort of reduction , in addition to tax, should apply in these cases .

'Cake and eat it' seems to be the need nowadays me me me

..........

and puts on hard hat ................

[ACW]

The fact is for a very long time all of us in much of the western world and the UK in particular have collectively been spending more than our means public, private and government. We now need a long and painful couple of decades at least to get to a more sustainable long term debt.

As someone else has said, the governement are cutting the deficit NOT yet the debt. Shortly the countries debt will grow to 1 trillion. This equates to every employed person in the UK owing 34 grand. Each household in the UK pays over 2 grand just to service the interest ! If our credit rating is downgraded this will jump massively.

imagine the investment that could be made in public services (which surely everyone wants to be better) that could be made if we did have to service this debt. We now need a government in it for teh long term to finally address this issue and not ones to borrow further to win votes and keep the good times rolling.

Its going to get bad and its not going to be quick. but if we fail to act it will be worse.

[pete g]

i have worked in the private and public sector.

and i deserve to get what i signed up for in both.

but wont due to mismanagement.

goal posts moved comes to mind .country in the s**t why . greed

not from the average worker.i would like to know who has got all the money?.

my first job pensionable age was 63 got better job pensionable age if i pay more in was 50.company taken over pensionable age back to 65. now its going to be 67

being a shiftworker il be lucky to get a couple of years

pension before i die.well worth paying into for 50years work.

would i do it again. no i would blow it all on beer  and holidays and die the day before  i retire.

so that robbing goverment get b****r all out of me.

up the strikers you have my support  

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

I support anyone who isnt getting what they were promised. However, the country is broken and in the s**t. How many years ago did Greece hold the Olympics? Not many is the answer and they are now in the s**t and guess what is coming to the UK in 2012...........

[XTR2Turbo]

Pete

You can't die too soon. At least you must out live your solar panels ;-)