Anyone want a sensible debate on....

[lippydave]

I blame successive governments who have tried to run things from Whitehall. They should have let the professionals run things while the politicians found them the wherewithal to so do.

Norm,

the problem and most others that we suffer as a nation are a direct reflection of the the fact that we have "professional politicians", "career politicians", and ahem, "professional managers" in the civil services

Essentially people who have never, ever worked in a proper job during their adult life.      

Any fleeting work experience was done as a student in some bullsh*t environment and they simply don't want to comprehend the mundane difficulties, problems and challenges that face "ordinary" people who have to work for a living. They have no understanding of how processes and real business work.

The best teachers and lecturers IME are the ones who have worked in industry at some stage and can relate to the "real" world, I see no reason to think politicians and senior civil servants should be any different?    

There should be a requirement for politicians to have had a minimum period of at least 10years gainful employment before they end up running for any kind of political office.

Otherwise we just get rubber stamped, over-privileged rich mommies boys such as Cameron, Clegg. Milliband etc thinking they know what is best for the average working family when the reality is they have no ******' idea what a working family even is.......    

Pompous, condescending, overpaid, hypocritical, conniving two-faced ponces the ******' lot of 'em. If they weren't privileged enough to be running the government, and or major organisations then they would almost be beneath the contempt of working men and women. The fact that they have that privilege means they deserve a good shoeing when they get it wrong, which appears to be the majority of the time.....W*nkers the f*cking lot of 'em            

[scott beeland]

Im with LippyDave on this one.

The govt. have decided to freeze my pay for the next two years to save the NHS some money, and yet have no f****n idea what effect that will have on my family ( or how negative it makes me feel about the mandatory extra qualifications/ certifications I need to maintain my registration)

I'd love to see ANY of the overpaid, over- privileged deletive do my job for 1 day, without firstly s******g their pants, and then looking at whats in the bank at the end of the month.

They don't have a clue about the real world

[Mark Stanton]

What lippydave said        

and get some of the freeloading scumbags who have no intention of working off theirfreeloading butts to pitch in and help in some way        

My old Pa was in a while back and his ward was just full of non english speaking freeloading wasters from every east european country, asia and as far as vietnam all having free NHS service         and if that means I'm a racist so be it       this country is a small island that needs as many working to pay taxes to provide an excellent NHS as it can and has done      

[Jenko]

Interesting debate.......

Our second son was born over three months early last year, he spent 5 months in intensive care, had countless operations, and has come through it all...all be it with a few problems. the cost while there was approx £2000 / week to us tax payers.  When you are subjected to places like neonatal intensive care you start question if the NHS really is that bad, it does have it's probelms, but when things get serious they are simply unbelieveable. I watched on countless occasions, nurses (young and old) reviving my child then walking away as if nothing happend (all in a days work). This then made me think very hard about going back to office, sitting at my PC and earling probably 3 times more than the nurse that had just saved my childs life!. I would pay them all 100k / year but of course this is not possible.

Point is, if you do every expierence life threatning situations, it does tend to put a different perspective on the NHS........I can't praise them enough.

[Carl]

QUOTE

Point is, if you do every expierence life threatning situations, it does tend to put a different perspective on the NHS........I can't praise them enough.

I agree.

As the NHS is generally deemed to be "free" it is constantly and regularly abused by the general public.

If it was me I'd raise an extra "NHS" tax for;

Smokers

Heavy Drinkers (inc the Friday night club in A+E)

Drug Users

Excessively Obsese people

Regular missed appointments

etc,etc

I'd guess that over 50% of NHS costs are "self induced" by the above.

Carl

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

I read somewhere fairly authoritative that smoking taxes raise as much as six* times as much revenue as the diseases of smokers cost the NHS. Whether this factors in the likelihood of a death before drawing a pension, or early on in retirement, I do not know.

*ETA the figures are circa £10bn tax take from tobacco, vs £2.7bn added NHS cost from smoking diseases. (Source:- A.S.H.) both 2006 figures. So it looks as if smokers pay their way handsomely on these figures.

[Dibby]

Not for long with the drive to cut the number of smokers in the UK. Maybe tax McDonalds and fast food next. I can see obesity and it's related illnesses becoming the next big strain on the NHS to hit us. We need to develop a public stigma against fat people just like we did with smokers, it's socially acceptable to ask someone to put a cigarette out but not to ask a fat person to put down a burger. We're all paying for their bad health at the end of it.

It's jobs like my sis-in-law that gives me little faith in the NHS, why are they spending money on events co-ordinators who seem to organise nice parties for a living? Surely concentrate on the core business of making people better than all this bumph floating around the edges? These airy-fairy jobtitles were nowhere to be seen 20 years ago and I doubt we'll miss them if they went.

Experiences of the NHS are that the docs and nurses on the ground are brilliant, dedicated people who work too long for too little reward. It's the guff around the system that needs clearing up. Also seen a few nurses leaving for Canada where nursing earns double what it does over here

[RichP]

A quick google reveals some interesting stats - the NHS employs more than 1.7M people in the UK, running a budget of > £100BN. For sure I wouldn't want to run an organisation of this scale, but I do wonder how anyone manages to run it efficiently. Whether or not the various budget adjustments each year are appropriate I've no idea, but it would be interesting to understand what measures are in place to ensure those budgets are managed effectively / appropriately, as well as what proportion is directed to the "indirect" functions compared to thecore business. As Dibby suggests, there are probably major improvements that could be made to the "guff around the system" that would free up additional budget of great value to the core business.

I bet health and safety as well as the modern enthusiasm for suing everyone for everything (for sure the NHS is on the receiving end of this on a regular basis) soaks up quite bit of cash as well.

[Norman Verona]

I'll need to chuck my twopence in on several posts as my memory ain't what it was.

Mark, I will agree with your POV IF those foreigners are all over here drawing benefits, sitting at home all day and getting NHS treatment. I 'll guess that most will have jobs and be paying tax and NI.

As a third generation immigrant I shouldn't be accused of racism. but...

It really hurts when you're born in the UK and paid tax and Ni for 54 years to be told that you're not eligible for a card to get into the French health service until one of us reaches retirement age. So whilst I continued to pay tax (but not NI) in the UK I was left on my own. It only makes it worse when immigrants arrive having no history of putting anything into the system but get full, free, medical benefits.

Don't blame the immigrants, blame the Government who are ripping off the people of this country.

[Mark Stanton]

I'm right with you Norman - if anyone from any race, colour and creed works and contributes then thats just fine .......... if you keeping dragging over your gran and aunt and any other relative that has done nowt nor likely to................ then the whole system stinks     charity begins at home  

I've just heard that France may be relenting a little on health system for those not yet at full retirement age, but have contributions in a.n. other EU country ..... will see if I can find it  

[Norman Verona]

Dave of the lip.

I think you've got it but it's not because they've not had any other job but because they make decisions based on getting er-elected.

Churchill never worked in "industry". He was a soldier for a few years and also, whilst a politician, the highest paid journalist in the world.

Wilson, in my opinion one of the most productive PM's, was a civil servant before becoming a politician.

The list can go on.

The real difference is that the pay, in the case of politicians before the second war was non-existent (hence the unions sponsoring the labour men and the Tory landowners could support themselves)

We pay them too much. It attracts the wrong people who only do the job for the money not to help society.

However, the same argument can be made for the nurses. The pay is far better than it was, even in the 60s. Now you get career nurses who are doing the job just for the money. That's not to say they don't care (but I've seen some that don't) but that it's the money that gets them into nursing rather than the dedication.

[Norman Verona]

Scott, spot on. But grin and bear it mate. We need you and I think the public will not forget whats being done.

(picking on the vulnerable but leaving the parasites alone)

Anyway, I have a feeling the government wont be around for much longer. Murdoch has finally been caught out and he will take many of the A*** lickers with him.

[Dibby]

TBH, the immigrants are a drop in the ocean compared to the amount we dish out in benefits to the people completely able to put in a day's work but choose to sit there with their hands out.

That's what boils my p**s about Britain. The way my wife and I both have masters degrees and both work full time to pay the mortgage on a 3-bed semi when the fat cow over the road who was in the same class as wife gets her house paid for by the state and she's not put in a single day's work in her life, neither have her parents. Now they've just gone on holiday to Spain on our taxes. Say, you have a nice time out there, you deserve it for a year's hard work you put in!

She's about 25 - 30 stone and will take far more out of the NHS than the wife and I put together. Plus her snotty little kid will follow her down the same route while we sit here thinking there's no way we could afford a kid and a house at the same time. There shoudl be a basic level of life saving care but those that put in more shoudl be allowed to take out more, seems the other way around in the UK, those that work the least take the most.

I'd much rather give NHS treatment to someone in genuine fear of their life fleeing their country, than give it to an undeserving white native lifelong sponger born the UK

[Norman Verona]

Jenko, my points are against the politicians not the medical staff.

However I must say this. HM was at a private hospital having "women's" things looked into (I can't put it more succinctly than that). The consultant tried talking her into have a hysterectomy. I was in the room at the time and quried this. His best reason for the offer was because he had a slot next Thursday. He was employed by the NHS but did these ops on the side.

She had an eye test in the high street and was referred to a surgeon to look at a swollen blood vessel over her eye. He tells her she has cataracts and must have them operated on. He can do it next week as he has a slot. I take her back to the optician who is horrified at this. She gets the pictures of HMs eyes out and confirms she (and most of us at 55) has a cataract forming but it will not cause concern for many years.

Say no more.

[Norman Verona]

Carl, one of the points about the FRench system, is that by having to pay, even though you get it back, you do not run to the doctor with every little sniffle.

However, if you put into practice what you suggest we would have empty hospitals and full morgues.