Mark Stanton Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 and for clarification of Speed Series all thats needed is a TQF (Technical Query Form) submitted very easily via email to the Comp Sec to avoid ambiguity Quote
Lumme! Posted January 6, 2011 Author Posted January 6, 2011 I always enjoy seeing a 'simple' question trigger some good analytical debate - thanks to all contributors, particularly Messrs Mow and Dummy. Gut feel tells me that the 'in the spirit of' clause applies, ie it's in-keeping with the spirit of a road going class to run with something that can be reasonably described as a passenger seat. On that basis, I'll opt for the kart seat as originally planned. Given that the debate can be closed quickly with a very small amendment to the SS regs I'll make a note and suggest it at the end of the season. I can imagine that Sir Comp Sec has a few more pressing items on his mind at the moment! Thanks again. Lumme! Quote
Crash test dummy Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Gut feel tells me that the 'in the spirit of' clause applies, ie it's in-keeping with the spirit of a road going class to run with something that can be reasonably described as a passenger seat. On that basis, I'll opt for the kart seat as originally planned. I think that's a very gentlemanly stance to take. TBH for us the seat is a small weight penalty - kart seats can be sub 2kg. In some of the production car classes (205's etc) a hefty passenger seat might well be a big % of the car's overall weight. If you do go for a seat don't forget what Smokey said about the car being presented in an MOT condition. - you'll need to fit seat belts too. Quote
Mark Stanton Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE car being presented in an MOT condition and at many event the scrutes ask to see tax disc, insurance cert and valid MOT to ensure road-going compliance for class entered Quote
salexander Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 My car has been MOT'd numerous times without a passenger seat! As usual, the blue book fails to address the issues of kit-cars that simply don't have a 'standard' specification. Quote
Mark Stanton Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE 'in the spirit of' clause applies, ie it's in-keeping with the spirit of a road going class to run with something that can be reasonably described as a passenger seat. Lumme has perhaps clarified it Quote
XTR2Turbo Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 My car has been MOT'd numerous times without a passenger seat! As usual, the blue book fails to address the issues of kit-cars that simply don't have a 'standard' specification. What does the V5 say. one seat or 2? It would have been SVA'd with one or two and the documentation should follow that Quote
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 A little explanation of what the rules are trying to do may help here. The MSA Yearbook is aimed at trying to classify vehicles to ensure in general that they meet safety standards (see section K). Then that there are a general set or rules to confirm it’s a car (see section J) as opposed to a rocket powered go kart or water vehicle !! Then section S defines the Categories of vehicles for Sprint & Hillclimbing. After that it's up to the clubs to decide the classes and as such we can add rules of our own to tighten up (but not losen) the MSA Rules. So we can decide the cc split, which tyres to run on etc. Following me so far OK, so now for the seats issue. You must not fall into the trap of thinking that if it does not specifically mention it then it is allowed. So whilst you could argue under section J that passenger seat can be removed, the particular category of car has not been defined. But under Section S it has. Your car is a Roadgoing Specialist Production Car and as such must comply with rule 11.4.6 Interior trim must remain fitted (expect floor carpets /mats). So I read that rule to mean that you can only take the carpets out of the car, everything else must remain. Then on to the specific type of seat, this is covered in the safety section K in some detail, but there is another section S rule as well, which is 10.7.7 this allows the replacement of front seats by fully trimmed competition ones. Again strengthening the argument for 2 front seats. This argument is further strengthened by Section S 12.5.12 which specifically allows the removal of the front passenger seat for MODIFIED Specialist Production Cars. We specifically mention seats in the Speed Series regs to be helpful to people, but actually at times someone who wishes to digs around the rules can make what initially appears a convincing argument to the contrary. So in some ways we do ourselves no favours if you are of that nature. The overriding statement which we would love to put in the rules but can’t due to the format required by the MSA is :- “ You should always look to compete in a fair manner as has always been the spirit of the WSCC Speed Series” So just because the rules don’t say you can’t put a Cosworth F1 engine into your Westfield, it’s doesn’t mean you should. Although come to think of it, I've got a spare one of those in the Gould, good job I am not allowed to compete in the Speed Series Quote
SteveD Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 il take the engine off your hands wuv ,im sure i can squeeze it in the westy in our workshop Quote
Lumme! Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Nick, Thanks very much for your comprehensive response; valuable insight into the use and interpretation of regs for me as a newcomer to the game. Case closed (from my perspective)! Cheers, Lumme! Quote
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 il take the engine off your hands wuv ,im sure i can squeeze it in the westy in our workshop I am sure you could Steve. I'd be a bit worried that once you had got it up to the ridiculously high speed it wouldn't stop I was far more worried about coming over the finish at Curborough in my Westie at about 105mph, than I was coming over it at about 145 in the Gould, the aero effect stops it nearly dead ( 150 to 40 in less than 100metres) Quote
SteveD Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 dont forget the extra weight of me will help it though,and my helemet spoiler reading through the blue book about aero aids etc ,it does not say you cannot have a helmet mounted wing and splitter Quote
Matt Seabrook Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 dont forget the extra weight of me will help it though,and my helemet spoiler reading through the blue book about aero aids etc ,it does not say you cannot have a helmet mounted wing and splitter Quote
SteveD Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 dont forget the extra weight of me will help it though,and my helemet spoiler reading through the blue book about aero aids etc ,it does not say you cannot have a helmet mounted wing and splitter ahhh you may laugh but think about it just bought an ex alonso renault rear wing off ebay, just need to mount it on my helmet know Quote
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