Do I need a passenger seat in class E?

[Lumme!]

Having really enjoyed the two 2010 events I entered I’ve just sent my registration for 2011, running in class E.

I was on the verge of buying a cheap kart seat to replace my high-backed passenger seat (in order to retain two seats but reduce weight/wind resistance) but then re-read the 2011 regs….  

Section 3.2; ‘In classes A, B, C, D the main chassis structure, body tub construction, suspension configuration and number of seats to remain as standard production.  No internal trim may be removed except carpet’.

On that basis, it appears that I don’t need a passenger seat at all in Class E.  However, before I roll up passenger seatless (and trimless) please could someone confirm my interpretation?

I can’t recall whether other Class E/F cars ran with passenger seats last year (but I’m also conscious that this may be irrelevant as a consequence of reg changes).

Thanks in advance.

Lumme!

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

For roadgoing you will need a passenger seat

[Mark Stanton]

as a roadgoing class car (E and F) both require a trimmed passenger seat, often a covered kart seat is acceptable, the drivers seat may be replaced with one suitable for motorsport use (i.e you can have a fancy carbon one   )

Only Class G and H cars as non-roadgoing do not require any passenger seat

[Lumme!]

Thanks, as ever, for the rapid responses - much appreciated.  I'm glad I checked!

Cheers,

Lumme!

[Martin Keene]

as a roadgoing class car (E and F) both require a trimmed passenger seat, often a covered kart seat is acceptable, the drivers seat may be replaced with one suitable for motorsport use (i.e you can have a fancy carbon one   )

Only Class G and H cars as non-roadgoing do not require any passenger seat

Really, so I was illegal with GRP buckets both sides then?

[Mark Stanton]

check yer bluebook ........ roadgoing cars trimmed passenger seat....... as I recall, can be as simple as a foam pad with velcro      

If you had won anything Martin ........... then questions would have been raised            

[Martin Keene]

Won something...

[V 8]

If you had won anything Martin

No worries then........  Sorry Martin, couldn't help it

[Matt Seabrook]

Ouch

[Martin Keene]

Harsh.

But very fair...

[V 8]

Wuv you tho'

[Crash test dummy]

check yer bluebook ........ roadgoing cars trimmed passenger seat.......

Interesting point.

(S) 11.4.6. states that "Interior trim must remain fitted (except floor carpets/mats).

It doesn't specifically mention seats which leaves this para open to interpretation. Is a seat "trim" or is a seat a seat and everything else cosmetic in the cockpit "trim"?

Made further confusing by (J) 5.2.4. which states "......but may have passenger seats removed."

I appreciate that certain race or speed series may include the requirement for a passenger seat in their SR's but to say that the Blue Book requires it may not necessarily be true.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Does section J not define the minimum requirements for competition vehicles and then the various sections of S denote the class requirements for sprint vehicle which must be complied with over and above J

Further (S)11.4.6 by definition of a Road going specialist production car at least 20 identical examples must be produced by a manufacturer within a 12 month period, so if Westfield chose to fit only 1 seat in 20 cars they sell (and register them as such with the DVLA) then I would see no problem with that otherwise I would presume a road going single seated westfield would instead fall within (S).12 as a Modified Limited Production car.

The speed series regs do only state that a passenger seat is required for classes A-D but the following paragraph within our draft regs could also be used to argue that in E & F a passenger seat is required

QUOTE

Entrants in classes A,B,C,D, E and F are reminded that these classes are intended for genuine road-going vehicles and must be taxed, insured, have a current MOT (where applicable), be road legal in all respects with reference to MSA general technical and safety regulations.

Cars shall be presented for all events in an MOT condition and shall have documentation available for inspection, upon request.

In answer to the OP's question my interpretation is that a passenger seat is required in the speed series class E and if fitted the car could compete as a road going specialist production car.  If the seat is removed then at the event I would say you'd be classified as a modified limited production car.

[Crash test dummy]

(J) does define the minmum standards but my point is that (S) does not specifically mention seats which leaves the reader able to fall back on (J) which allows you to remove them??? (A question not a statement).

Also have a look at the second para of (S) 10.10.

Further (S)11.4.6 by definition of a Road going specialist production car at least 20 identical examples must be produced by a manufacturer within a 12 month period, so if Westfield chose to fit only 1 seat in 20 cars they sell (and register them as such with the DVLA) then I would see no problem with that otherwise I would presume a road going single seated westfield would instead fall within (S).12 as a Modified Limited Production car.

BTW (S) doesn't make the definitition that it it must be 20 identical examples per year. It says 20 Chassis cars which is interpreted by scrutes as being chassis types so as far as we are concerned any Westfield 7 will comply. You are taking it too far by suggesting that it needs to be 20 cars of the same "trim" type i.e. GT or Sport, one seater, two seater etc.

If the SS regs specify what seating arrangement is required in classes A - C why not in E&F? Can't believe that they would define it in some classes and leave it open to interpretation in others? (again a question not a statement).

[Mark (smokey mow)]

Thanks Crash, interesting how we both read things differently but you've pointed me towards a couple of interesting paragraphs I hadn't spotted before (notably (s)10.10 ) which leave me questioning myself.  

It does make me simle though that assuming your reasoning to be correct (which I find hard to argue now) the regulations allow you to take out all bar the drives seat but it would be necessary by (S)11.4.6 to keep the door cards and handbrake gator

Edit to add: I guess it's no different in any other forms of motor racing where the ambiguties of the regulations are exploited by the teams for their gain until such time as the rule makers close the loopholes and provide the clarification.