De Deon versus IRS?

[conibear]

If De Dion was *best* Caterham would not have bothered to develop an IRS chassis, would they?

Given a blank sheet of paper, you would not design a performance car with De Dion.

I'm with Matt Seabrook on this one...

The IRS Caterham chassis was, IIRC developed as there was market competition and demand to cater for the larger individual, nothing to do with a DeDion rear end Also, Caterham produced their IRS wide body to keep in with modern times, thus capable of handling big power

Keeping on track, Carl asks how his SEIW with it's IRS compares with a DeDion Caterham, not how a DeDion compares with ALL or ANY IRS cars

All being equal, apples with apples and all that, Bob Green has a point

[stu999]

If De Dion was *best* Caterham would not have bothered to develop an IRS chassis, would they?

Given a blank sheet of paper, you would not design a performance car with De Dion.

I'm with Matt Seabrook on this one...

Mmm. Using that line of thought Blatters, obviously a bigger (and, probably heavier) car is better too - because the CSR is certainly bigger, and probably heavier

Perhaps Caterham just bowed to customer demands/moved with the times as far as off the shelf parts availability goes, etc.

[Blatman]

Surely customers demand the best? Ergo...

A DD tube is an off the shelf part for Caterham 'cos they have them made, just like a rear upright for a Westfield is an off the shelf part.

Regardless of any of that, or evangelism for a particular brand, or disagreeing with me just 'cos it's me... ask a proper qualified automotive engineer. I did...

[Norman Verona]

Isn't there some confusuin here between CSR and SV. The SV is the the wide bodied car and had/has a DD rear.

The CSR is the IRS rear and happens to have the SV body.

I'm not sure there is a "best". It depends on driving style, ability, and, to some extent, what the driver wants.

I could say my BDR engine is better than, say a VX. Some would agree and some would disagree. (The latter group would be wrong, of course   )

[conibear]

ask a proper qualified automotive engineer. I did...

So are you saying, that your proper qualified automotive engineer told you that the IRS of our cars is better than Caterhams Dedion rear end  

And.....................

What on earth has it got to do with driving styles, why do people keep going on about that  

There is only one correct way of driving fast round a circuit, everything being equal with the same b****y driver, whats the best rear end        

[samcooke]

QUOTE

everything being equal with the same b****y driver, whats the best rear end

Live axle.

HTH

[stu999]

Surely customers demand the best? Ergo...

Of all people, you should know better than that mate. Customers demand what they *perceive* is best. If their peception is because of persuasive advertisments, sales patter, misguided threads on forums etc, then that is what the majority will demand.

Trouble is, it is rare that exactly the same car can be compared, albeit with the different type rear suspension fitted and optimised. The closest we have possibly got to the above comparison is live axled/IRS Westfield. I doubt you could stick you head above the parapit and state that an IRS Westfield is actually quicker round a circuit. I doubt Matt could either

[samcooke]

QUOTE

I doubt you could stick you head above the parapit and state that an IRS Westfield is actually quicker round a circuit. I doubt Matt could either

The theory, that IRS can maintain a bigger contact patch, says it should be, in practice it's impossible to tell and fruitless to argue, too many other variables.

[Matt Seabrook]

The closest we have possibly got to the above comparison is live axled/IRS Westfield. I doubt you could stick you head above the parapit and state that an IRS Westfield is actually quicker round a circuit. I doubt Matt could either

Are you saying I am rubbish behind the wheel Stu

You would be right of course    

[conibear]

But that is the problem. The 'same' driver may prefer one car. Put a different competant driver behind the wheel of both, and he/she may pick the other. Driving styles *do* make a difference. If it didn't, then why is i that identical cars from the same race team are often setup completely differently for two different drivers? Personal preference is a big deal when it comes to car set-up...

Yes I do agree , However, referring to top end motorsport where two drivers running the same team car, demanding different setups due to their slight variance in ability/style is not relevant IMO in Carl's case (amateur motorsport) and probably anyone else reading this; don't you think  

If anyone on here wanted to start racing, they would be advised to get some tuition. That tuition would be a guide general rule of thumb

If I tested a Caterham tomorrow around any circuit in the UK and it's A*** kept stepping out, I would immediately head for the pits, adjust till I get my setup. But would it be quicker than my Westy IRS, that's the question  

[stu999]

The closest we have possibly got to the above comparison is live axled/IRS Westfield. I doubt you could stick you head above the parapit and state that an IRS Westfield is actually quicker round a circuit. I doubt Matt could either

Are you saying I am rubbish behind the wheel Stu

You would be right of course    

On the contarary mate - exactly the opposite - just trying to shoot your own point of view down in flames    I think you would be the first to admit that your 'racer' is more than competitive against IRS machinery.

Trouble is, is it driver ability, car spec, setup, a combination of any/all?

[Matt Seabrook]

Agree the driver is likely to be the weakest link. On saying that I would rather be able to tweak out some handling issues more easily with a IRS than what I have had to do to my live axle  

[stu999]

On saying that I would rather be able to tweak out some handling issues more easily with a IRS than what I have had to do to my live axle  

Gotta agree there!

But that is back to the compromise that the owner has to make when making the decision. As far as ease of adjustability goes, live axle looses hands down. A live axle can be 'adjusted', but it takes a lot of knowledge, skill and patience to do so, which is where dedion can be brought back into the equation. IIRC it is possible to 'adjust' the toe/camber on a Caterham dedion far easier than a live axle, and arguably many IRS systems too - if you have a selection of 'ears' available...  

The Dax dedion axle could potentially be too - but I personally have found no reason to do so - it works ******g great as supplied

[gixermark]

for what its worth... my opinion is any of the three configurations of axle's work well.. some eaiser than other to set up or adjust maybe... but in the real world i think its best to stick with what you have and just concentrate on driving/set-up to suit YOU rather than expect a car or axle set up to make the difference...

out of interest - on track how consistent are your laps times ?? and if/when you make changes to suspension/chassis can you 'feel' the difference and again be consistent with the times ?? the answers to that woudl dicate whether i was going to spend money on another variable in terms of chassis/engine etc etc...

just my tuppence worth..

Mark.

[Matt Seabrook]

The live axle supplied by Westfield generally comes with a touch toe out due to the brackets being welded on to the rear of the of the axle for the trailing arms. This can give a problem with power on oversteer out of a corner. My race car now runs a touch toe in and about a 1/4 deg neg camber. This makes the rear end planted but given the choice I would have had IRS. The De Doin has advantages over the live axle but given the three its got to be IRS