Darkspeed Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 I assumed Windy was alluding to the fact that hoops are being fitted to the standard ROPS so that they comply with the Blue book height rule. In that situation its the driver that does not comply with the approved design of the seat and bar provide by Westfield - as far as scrutineering the car its fine. As mentioned before if an " Average driver" is still above the bar in a car fitted with Westfield Race seats and a Westfield RAC bar then the issue is with Westfield not the MSA or the Blue book. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 And as to scrutineers bulletins - don't I just know it - I was on the thick end of a very officious scrute who thought what was written in the scrutineers bulletin could be applied as a blue book rule to my car. My point exactly Windy,if the blue book is the rules by which we all compete how can something that is not in the book be enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 It can't, you'd escalate to the CoC, and if they both ruined your day, the MSA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkspeed Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 The "I will just complain until someone gives in" is pretty well what causes all the problems - Hills and Sprints seem more open to " turning a blind eye" because its just you on the hill and if the ROPS fails its your neck - not a co-driver or a fellow competitor. At the end of the day who loses out when the hoop fails and you are killed? The Blue book provides minimum safety requirements for motorsport - there are many many things that are not in it - All you have to do is comply with those standards - If you wish to exceed it by fitting a full cage over a simple hoop you will not be penalised for it. For the sake of your own neck - get a proper ROPS or have your modification checked by the original manufacturer for compliance. Your issue should be with Westfield or whoever provided a ROPS that is too short not the MSA for not writing into the rules how you can get around the rules by welding extra bits on. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 As mentioned before if an " Average driver" is still above the bar in a car fitted with Westfield Race seats and a Westfield RAC bar then the issue is with Westfield not the MSA or the Blue book. Cheers Andrew That's the problem, 4 years ago there was a direction in the scrutineers note to check the 2" rule on open sports cars with a line drawn down to front structure, which many of then started to take as top of chassis and then start telling us that our heads were too high for the Westie Roll over bars. So the nest year we all started welding add on hoops to cure the problem, which they did for a bit and now this has come up. Anyone remember Johnny Wes and his cloud touching roll over bar, awsome sight. Pleased I have bought a cage for it, getting to be such a chew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 I had questions raised about the height of my factory RAC bar in May 2007 (first of the seasons ASWMC Llandow Sprints), road-going class. I subsequently bent up a 2" taller replica hoop, no more questions over height in 2007. Towards the end of last year though, there was a mumble over the radii of the hoop corners being too tight. Having exactly replicated the factory bar radii, I guess a lot of mumbling would be due if there's a feeling out there about sharp pipe bends... anyway, the MkIII will have greater radii! Nice extension (attached on the ends): http://www.aswmc.org.uk/sprint.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Yep your bar radii are too tight good height above head do you also have rear struts ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 This is from the Scrutineer news from May last year Roll Cages If you come across a roll bar with additional hoops on top of sections such as the main hoop please check to see if has been certified before you deem a structure non-compliant. There are many roll cage structures and hoops that are non- conventional but do however carry a roll cage certificate. Seems quite clear Andrew At the risk of banging on about this and already waiting for the factory to open to see if they have a bar for a narrow in stock, if that bulletin had been made public and not just to scrut's towards the end of last season this problem would not now be an issue. At this moment in time as far as I know there has still been nothing official from the MSA, when were they intending to tell us, at the first meeting as they kicked us out of the scrutineering bay? If you competed last season without a problem how are you supposed to know anything has changedif the rule book does not inforn you so, it was only a chance remark I overheard that caused me to try and find an answer in the blue book and subsequently raise the issue in the first place. I should point out that I have been an MSA Clerk of the Course for 12 years and this is the first I have heard of this issue, I also think everyone in the WSCC is now aware but scrutineers could face a busy season from others not as clued up as we now are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 It can't, you'd escalate to the CoC, and if they both ruined your day, the MSA. Tried both & neither have worked. As to Westfields, if the scrute & COC demand a higher roll hoop, refer them back to the MSA who should have told Westfield to make a new hoop & get it certified / renew their certificate. If they have not done so then next time the issue arises at scrutineering people will have to put their money on the table & make a formal complaint to the MSA. Its the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 It can't, you'd escalate to the CoC, and if they both ruined your day, the MSA. Tried both & neither have worked. [yoda] discombobulating, that is. [/yoda] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddlimbs Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Because the silly things is ........... if a RAC spec type bar is fitted, it must comply to the current legislation and yep if you get grief .............. unbolt it and remove all braces, drive without anything and you're "legal" Stupid innit So does this mean that you can compete, in road going class, with a standard WF roll bar or not? What if the whole bar/cage was "homemade" i.e. not approved??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yes you can compete in road-going class using a standard single piece roll bar ............. however it still must comply to the 50mm above your crash helmet rule ................ and you will get comments from scrutineers at every event you compete at that its not illegal but it's not good enough if ............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ...and they've never asked me to sit in the car for a measure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Please find below initial comments from the Speed Series Eligibility scrutineer, please note these comments must not be taken as an official MSA response but for guidance. .......................................................................................... Mark, Yes I agree the blue book is not quite clear on this one, in that it makes no reference to what was quite a common practice for race, sprint and hillclimb cars, to increase the height with an additional loop to the roll bar, to give extra head clearance. However Blue book C © para 5 is quite clear - any modification to an homologated safety cage is prohibited. First of all I’m not sure that the Westfield roll bar has ever been homologated, although I think it may have passed a SVA examination. The fact that Westfield when asked, welded on an additional hoop may be satisfactory, if they have submitted and had accepted new homologation papers showing the additional hoop together with stress and loading calculations to the MSA. In which case, the competitor should get a copy of the homologation certificate for production at scrutineering. Secondly who is going to prove that it was a factory modification, in most cases I have seen, I suspect it was on the car as bought, or it has been welded on by the competitor or person of unknown expertise. I would point you to Blue Book I46 :- for roadgoing production and roadgoing specialist production [ ie your non modified road-going class Westfields ] a roll cage is recommended. Therefore and because it’s not mandatory for non modified genuine roadgoing cars, and on the basis that any ROPS is better than none at all, I would accept a ROPS with an additional welded loop as OK. ( ROPS – Roll Over Protection System). A serious alternative to welding would be to lower the seat squab, and, or the seat pan area, but remember that the minimum ground clearance of 4cm with driver aboard must not be reduced I47 and C (b) 26K. I46 for all other classes requires a mandatory ROPS, which should be at least 5cm above the drivers head C © 39 with the main hoop constructed from one continuous tube C © 7. Which means that if the head clearance cannot be met, the existing ROPS should be removed, and a new taller ROPS installed. I’ve flagged your query and my response to you up to the MSA, so if I get any further feedback from them I will let you know. Regards David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddlimbs Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yes you can compete in road-going class using a standard single piece roll bar ............. however it still must comply to the 50mm above your crash helmet rule ................ and you will get comments from scrutineers at every event you compete at that its not illegal but it's not good enough if ............ Thanks Mark, what about a non approved, full cage? I was thinking about having one made that would fit inside the roof - for road use. Not sure if it's actually feasible yet as I'm still building the car!! My original thought was that any cage would be considered better than nothing, but having read this thread I'm not so sure!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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