greenandmean Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 goodness me can anybody make any sense of the blue book (so called cos thats the colour of the air around anyone trying to interpret it) in plain simple english can you still have a welded hoop on top to improve clearance for your head. Heard several murmurs about them no longer being allowed, and scrut at Croft last year did make special mention of it, but he would , it was not mentioned anywhere else. Blue book as far as I can tell says like pictures 1&2 which shows 2 roll bars neither with a diagonal brace which I thought was compulsory Since having the !hump! welded on I have changed seats and now sit much lower so hump is not really needed anymore but dont want to change roll bar if I dont have to,but if I do have to I would rather do it before the season gets underway. Can anyone interpret MSA speak? and this is supposed to be the new user friendly blue book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Ditto Mr P Diagonal brace is not compulsory I don't think many scrutes are clear on it either Leave it with me and I'll seek advice from our very own MSA scrutineer and eligibility man Mr B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Thanks Mark been trying to read the blue book for the last couple of hours and me heads in bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Have sent query e-mail off Have a large glass of something instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 On the basis that you dont actually need one at all for a road going car, why the worry? They are only recommended PS - always an advantage being short Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Because the silly things is ........... if a RAC spec type bar is fitted, it must comply to the current legislation and yep if you get grief .............. unbolt it and remove all braces, drive without anything and you're "legal" Stupid innit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkspeed Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 This is from the Scrutineer news from May last year Roll Cages If you come across a roll bar with additional hoops on top of sections such as the main hoop please check to see if has been certified before you deem a structure non-compliant. There are many roll cage structures and hoops that are non- conventional but do however carry a roll cage certificate. Seems quite clear Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 QUOTE Seems quite clear Do you want to come and scrutineer at WSCC events then especially in Wales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Added hoops to RAC bar last winter (2006/7). Scrute at Croft in MArch 2007 spotted said hoops, raised an eyebrow and promptly produced guidance from the MSA about bar extensions producing point loads ...oh, sorry, did I nod off there. Anyways, he passed it then as it was not mandatory for 2007 and the consensus amongst other hoopy people was that it was just scrutes doing their normal scruty job. Having read the blue book just now, I see they have revised the rollbar references and am as confused as Paul. For me, it's not an issue as I've gone to a cage, but the hoops are still on the rollbar on the car I sold, so I'm still keen to get clarity on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkspeed Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Just a trainee - but have to admit that there is a lot of inconsistency The main issue that has come about with the loops is that they put a point load mid section of a beam and could cause premature failure of the overall structure which could make the loop next to useless when you most need it. Seems daft to me to cut corners on a peice of safety equipments especially when they are only £250 or so Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Yep hoops may introduce an extra point load at mid-span ............... however if main horizontal is strong enough to resist the applied force then there shouldn't be a problem, similarly if perhaps two triangular stiffeners were welded into position to transfer this load back to the mounting points again shouldn't be a cause for concern. Hence your original post and rightly so However ................................. what guidance for the point load force is required when calculating the stiffness and rigidity of the main horizontal to which a hoop is introduced to ensure its compliance Again it's all left up to the scruters and their personal interpretation and whether they have a circuit race or rally background for their training and the inconsistency this brings to the sprint/hillclimb discipline Good Luck with your training Andrew, what area are you in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenandmean Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 This is from the Scrutineer news from May last year Roll Cages If you come across a roll bar with additional hoops on top of sections such as the main hoop please check to see if has been certified before you deem a structure non-compliant. There are many roll cage structures and hoops that are non- conventional but do however carry a roll cage certificate. Seems quite clear Andrew Hi Andrew not having a pop at you my anger is solely with the MSA. If that article was in scrutineer news why was it not included in the blue book? I suspect it is a guidance note and not yet ratified so cannot be included. I believe I am correct in saying the CofC and only the CofC has the authority to punisn any infringment of the rules, and in order to do so by fine, penalty points or exclusion etc. he must in writing specify what regulation has been contravined, I can see no regulation in the blue book refering to welded hoops so which regulation has been contravined? !an article sent out to scrutineers only, last May!. If the article is correct and was published last May goodness me why was it not included in the blue book which I believe goes for printing in September (head above parapet waiting to be shot off), perhaps because it is written in plain english it is not allowed in the book. SO WHAT TO DO, do I get out the angle grinder and cut off the hoop which I might add goes right across the roll bar so does not put a point loading mid span(see car 55 in F ebruary 2008 WSCC calendar) grind it down nice and smooth, paint it up and make it look pretty and everything is ok, now that really would weaken the bar and not forgetting it's my in the car we will dismiss that one. As it is a road going car I could just remove it think how low it would look, all that weight saved and drag eliminated, no, apart from having nowhere to mount the camera the self preservation mode has just kicked in again. So it looks like removing the existing bar which has welded back stays and was a bast**d to fit and fitting a shiny new one with detacable back stays straight from the factory. However whats to stop some oik at the MSA with too much time on his hands suddenly thinking, if a car at X speed rolled and hit the barriers at Y angle the rose joint on the back stay could shear, I know we will ban detacable back stays and the whole circus starts again. Sorry for the rant but it appears the MSA have been listening to this labour government and adopted a new logo, double standards and incompetance in all things at all times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkspeed Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Scrutineers news is just a monthly bulletin that offers additional through season help and advice and highlights issue found - the ROPS was one and another was looking out for lightened wheel bolts where people are drilling them out to make them lighter. ROPS hoops with beads of "no more nails" instead of weld etc. These are not rule changes that need ratification they are just notes and guides. My understanding is If the roll cage was originally designed with a hoop then thats fine. If the roll bar had a hoop added and the design of the additional hoop has been calculated by the original manufacturer so as to maintain the full design structural integrity of the cage then that is also fine If the hoop has been added just to add height with no design stress calculations or approvals from the original manufacturer then its at the discretion of the scrutineer. Where you find that some go exactly to the rules and others want to please at this is seems to me where the problem really is. For your hoop even it goes right across is the top of the hoop braced back as a single hoop would have to be to still provide triangulation? Where any design stress calculations carried out? Has it been approved by the original manufacturer. My personal advice Take a photo of your modification send it to Westfield or caged or whoever and ask them for their opinion and approval. - end of problem - I think we all know that is unlikely any of them would approve of these mods. At the end of the day YOU are responsible for your safety and the safety of others. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 So are we saying the MSA approved Westfield supplied roll hoop no longer complies? One presumes Westfield have a certificate for their hoop? Most cars fitted with Westfield seats means that your head is above the roll hoop anyway. And as to scrutineers bulletins - don't I just know it - I was on the thick end of a very officious scrute who thought what was written in the scrutineers bulletin could be applied as a blue book rule to my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 QUOTE So are we saying the MSA approved Westfield supplied roll hoop no longer complies? One presumes Westfield have a certificate for their hoop? Nope that's not what has been stated It's the use of additional hoops welded onto main hoop that is being questioned boyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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