MSA changes

[windy]

I look at this debate with raised eyebrows.

Last year we had the fuel fiasco in rallying. The MSA insisted that cars be run on a maximum of 100 octane fuel. Most of the WRC rally cars used in the rallies in the UK are mapped & have engine internals that can only therefore run on most of the specialist racing fuels which are way above 100 octane.

When the MSA chose an event last year to pick on cars to do some fuel testing they didn't even have the safe means to extract fuel from the cars let alone the equipment to test it. The MSA then issued a press release implying that competitors had been reluctant to give them fuel samples, when in fact it was the MSA themselves that were completely incompetent. Needless to say there was uproar. Many organising clubs then applied to have the fuel ruling lifted for their own events. People were beginning to boycot events & organising clubs were struggling to remain solvent through lack of entries. These clubs then put pressure on the MSA to back down & it seems to have worked. Whilst the ruling is still in place it appears it will never be policed & things will carry on as normal.

Having read Mark's verbal replies from the MSA it is clear that they have a similarly clueless ruling on catalysts. They have obviously not thought this one through either.

I don't think anyone will have anything to worry about. The ruling will be in place yes - it's a tick in a box to satisfy the greenies on paper - in reality it will never be policed or enforced for the same reasons above.

I think the best thing to do after you have all written to the MSA is to put a peitition on the government web site suggesting that the government appoints a new governing body to our sport. That should sort em    

[Mid life crisis]

I look at this debate with raised eyebrows.

Last year we had the fuel fiasco in rallying. The MSA insisted that cars be run on a maximum of 100 octane fuel. Most of the WRC rally cars used in the rallies in the UK are mapped & have engine internals that can only therefore run on most of the specialist racing fuels which are way above 100 octane.

When the MSA chose an event last year to pick on cars to do some fuel testing they didn't even have the safe means to extract fuel from the cars let alone the equipment to test it. The MSA then issued a press release implying that competitors had been reluctant to give them fuel samples, when in fact it was the MSA themselves that were completely incompetent. Needless to say there was uproar. Many organising clubs then applied to have the fuel ruling lifted for their own events. People were beginning to boycot events & organising clubs were struggling to remain solvent through lack of entries. These clubs then put pressure on the MSA to back down & it seems to have worked. Whilst the ruling is still in place it appears it will never be policed & things will carry on as normal.

Having read Mark's verbal replies from the MSA it is clear that they have a similarly clueless ruling on catalysts. They have obviously not thought this one through either.

I don't think anyone will have anything to worry about. The ruling will be in place yes - it's a tick in a box to satisfy the greenies on paper - in reality it will never be policed or enforced for the same reasons above.

I think the best thing to do after you have all written to the MSA is to put a peitition on the government web site suggesting that the government appoints a new governing body to our sport. That should sort em    

Nice one Windy  

         

[windy]

Glad to be of assistance

[Mark Stanton]

QUOTE

Having read Mark's verbal replies from the MSA it is clear that they have a similarly clueless ruling on catalysts. They have obviously not thought this one through either.

I don't think anyone will have anything to worry about. The ruling will be in place yes - it's a tick in a box to satisfy the greenies on paper - in reality it will never be policed or enforced for the same reasons above.

I think the best thing to do after you have all written to the MSA is to put a peitition on the government web site suggesting that the government appoints a new governing body to our sport. That should sort em

Ker ching   Thanks Windy ..............     However what I can say is in defence of the MSA ............ from my discussions with them - they aren't clueless on this matter - it is perhaps an external directive, the MSA officials I have spoken to have far more beneficial environmental matters and ideas, which were rejected rather than this cat fiasco which in many ways is perceived to be green by the tree huggers  

That said, a directive and guidance does need to be provided rather than the current head buried in sand approach and hope it goes away  

[windy]

So how can they be suggesting that an old engine such as a x-flow or a carbed bike engine could run with a catalyst then? They weren't designed to & certainly shouldn't be made to.

It is one rule for the MSA & a different one for VOSA / VCA. The MSA should be taking advise from the legislators, either VOSA or the VCA to give them advice on existing rules for manufacturers. They should also be aware of some basic Type Approval Legislation & for kit cars / specialist cars & the difference between the full type approval rules which apply to the large volume manufacturers.

It is like everything - if they want professional advice from the experts then they are going to have to pay for it. The MSA have limited funds so they are certainly not going to pay an expert to advise them. That's why they are making up this stupid rule themselves.

[Mark Stanton]

Graham .............. have you got my MSA phone line bugged            

[RICHARD+PHILIP]

Mark

Perhaps it would be a good idea to move the locked catalytic convertors thread in the speed series only area, to this area as only speed series registered competitors can currently see it.

I'm sure not every westfield owner competes in the speed series (although they should)

Phil

[Chris.B]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to move the locked catalytic convertors thread in the speed series only area, to this area as only speed series registered competitors can currently see it.

I'm sure not every westfield owner competes in the speed series (although they should)

I'm one of them - compete in my Westfield but not in the Speed Series.  Would like to see this discussion that is relevant to me

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

One interesting aspect of this, is the BEC, my standard Busa when first built ran a CAT equiped exhaust supplied by Westfield (but with no Lambda) To be honest, it ran fine and was quite quiet. Changing to a normal competition exhaust really only made it louder. I am sure on a Dyno, there will have be slight power losses, but it may help in the noise reduction front

Coat on time for a beer

[Buzz Billsberry]

I look at this debate with raised eyebrows.

Last year we had the fuel fiasco in rallying. The MSA insisted that cars be run on a maximum of 100 octane fuel. Most of the WRC rally cars used in the rallies in the UK are mapped & have engine internals that can only therefore run on most of the specialist racing fuels which are way above 100 octane.

When the MSA chose an event last year to pick on cars to do some fuel testing they didn't even have the safe means to extract fuel from the cars let alone the equipment to test it. The MSA then issued a press release implying that competitors had been reluctant to give them fuel samples, when in fact it was the MSA themselves that were completely incompetent. Needless to say there was uproar. Many organising clubs then applied to have the fuel ruling lifted for their own events. People were beginning to boycot events & organising clubs were struggling to remain solvent through lack of entries. These clubs then put pressure on the MSA to back down & it seems to have worked. Whilst the ruling is still in place it appears it will never be policed & things will carry on as normal.

Having read Mark's verbal replies from the MSA it is clear that they have a similarly clueless ruling on catalysts. They have obviously not thought this one through either.

I don't think anyone will have anything to worry about. The ruling will be in place yes - it's a tick in a box to satisfy the greenies on paper - in reality it will never be policed or enforced for the same reasons above.

I think the best thing to do after you have all written to the MSA is to put a peitition on the government web site suggesting that the government appoints a new governing body to our sport. That should sort em    

Totally agree I just wanna see 'em police it!I'm not particually bothered and nor does it seem the does the rest of the 750 club

Buzz

[RobC]

Just had my response from MSA as many other will have too...

Hard to police though as mentioned above... but he seems to be stating that this will be checked.. we will see

[Darrell O'Neill]

me too...

Here

Re: Catalytic Converters

In response to your recent enquiry:

Q. will Championships first registered prior to 31 December 2007 not require the above ruling to be a mandatory requirement until 1 January 2009?

A. The requirement for mandatory fitment of exhaust catalytic converters during 2008 is for those championships introduced in 2008. It does not apply to existing championships which ran as MSA authorised championships prior to 1st January 2008.

Q. For new championships established 2008, will this ruling will be mandatory for 2008?

A. Yes

Q. Where kit cars are specifically concerned: e.g. Westfield, Caterham, Locost, Raw Striker, Genesis, MK, Donkevoort etc

Does the term "manufactured" refer to the date of manufacture of the chassis and not that of the overall completion by the independent self builder or it's SVA, date of registration and/or MOT test where road-going?  

A. It would have been very easy to apply the regulation across the board, irrespective of vehicle age and category as have a number of our fellow ASN’s. As a general comment catalytic converters have been an integral part of vehicles being sold to the general public since 1992. Choosing to impose the requirement for post 1999 cars was seen to be reasonable and a help to competitors. Such “age breaks” are established practice. They do require an element of commonsense to be applied. Kit car manufacturers generally maintain production records and apply an identification plate to chassis constructions. These are generally dated but if not manufacturers records should provide a date of manufacture and it is that date which is relevant.

Q. Will it be mandatory for kit cars manufactured post 31 December 1999 to have a catalytic converter fitted regardless of age of engine, which may be pre 1999 and not designed for use with a catalytic converter?  

A. Yes

Q. Where kit cars are manufactured prior to 31 December 1999 but use an engine of a later date, will the use of a catalytic converter not be mandatory?  

A. Correct, the regulation refers to the car.

Q. Where a catalytic converter is mandatory, is this to be applied to all road-going kit cars whether they be Q plated or year plated? (Please note that Q plated vehicles are subject to a visible smoke test only when undergoing an MOT)

A. If  the only dating of a vehicle is through its registration then that would be used.

Q. Is a catalytic converter mandatory, subject to age of manufacture, when a motorbike engine fitment is used for the car build?  

A. The regulation makes no allowance for the source of the engine and thus applies irrespective.

Q. Is the rule 12.16.7 applicable to both road-going and modified non-road-going classes of kit car?  

A. The regulation applies irrespective of whether the vehicle is road-going or non road-going

Q. Will the use of catalytic converters is to be checked and "policed" by the scrutineers of the meeting, which may from time to time be supplemented with the use of specialist certificated gas analysing equipment with trained operatives?  

A. Catalytic converters will be checked in just the same way as any other vehicle component may be checked

Q. Will ruling 12.16.7 be applicable to all forms of sprinting, hill climbing and circuit racing?

A. The regulation applies to all disciplines.

The proposal was publicised in accordance with MSA criteria, this drawing a very limited amount of correspondence, the only significance being that with three exceptions it is only those associated to Westfields that have forwarded comment.

There has been general acceptance amongst all others that if motorsport is to survive it has to present a “green image”. Part of doing this is that vehicles are fitted with catalytic converters, this is what the general public expects and associates with “being green”. There is nothing new in competition cars being equipped with catalytic converters, they were fitted to Formula Vauxhall Lotus racing cars over 20 years ago. They have been mandatory in FIA World Rally Championship for over 5 years, mandatory on all competition cars in Germany for over 12 years. They are mandatory for competition cars in a number of countries worldwide. In some cases the requirement extends to include all classes, including historics.

During the course of this year there will be publicity concerning the practicalities of fitting catalytic converters. When silencing was introduced into motorsport many claimed it was impossible, this was proven not to be the case and it is now accepted as being part of the management of motorsport that is necessary for motorsport to survive. We see the catalyst converter issue as being very similar.

Please note this communication has been copied to all those who have forwarded identical communications.

Yours sincerely

For Motor Sports Association

JOHN SYMES

Technical & Risk Control Manager

[windy]

Hmm it's going to be interesting waiting 10 minutes for each car to be tested as it will be a long process to get a exhaust gas content analysed, & that's assuming the engine has already been warmed up to normal operating temperature under load & the oil temperature is above a certain level. Scrutineering could take a couple of days.  

Could be interesting where diesels are concerned. How do they propose to measure diesel particulates? What if the DPF is regenerating itself when the test is performed?

And are Biofuel & hybid cars going to be tested too?

I think the MSA are going to struggle to buy their equipment. Even if they do buy something, yet more cost is going to be passed onto the competitors to pay for it.  

[Mark Stanton]

From my conversations with MSA - it is anticipated that a visual inspection by the on the day scrutineers is all that will be initially undertaken                

Yes we all know what will happen to those empty baked bean cans        

In future years mobile gas analysers may be intoduced and utilised on suspected vehicles  

QUOTE

Q. Will ruling 12.16.7 be applicable to all forms of sprinting, hill climbing and circuit racing?

A. The regulation applies to all disciplines.

The proposal was publicised in accordance with MSA criteria, this drawing a very limited amount of correspondence, the only significance being that with three exceptions it is only those associated to Westfields that have forwarded comment.

That's cos most other championships are choosing to simply ignore it     I've even heard of some championship organisers notifying drivers that it won't apply to them          

[windy]

So are you saying it is possible for clubs to apply to the MSA for catalyst exemption as was the case with the fuel fiasco?