MSA changes

[RobC]

Good questions mark.

Emailed off to technical... couldn't (at quick glance) find a direct email for Mr Symes. So mailed FAO via Technical@msauk.org

[cidersurfer]

Well Richard, you made me chuckle...

[Blatman]

QUOTE

The MSA reply with words to the effect "five letters hardly amounted to a mass outcry did it?...." and goes ahead and ratifies the proposed rule.

When the MSA realise that in the interests of appearing to be on the "climate change" bandwagon, they have successfuly brought motorsport to the brink of extinction, those five voices will probably be all that's left and as such will probably carry some weight...

[Andy @ Cat]

Email sent. Again.

[Mid life crisis]

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but are the MSA the only organisation to run sprint and hillclimbs in the UK, or are their other organisations and bodies that offer competitve motorsport events.

           

[Richard M Green]

You're absolutely right Blatman: This is all about appearances, and is nothing to do with actually doing something that makes a significant difference to the planet.

In my letter to Mr Symes last year I pointed out that "....given the fact that the car has only covered 4,000 miles in the past seven years, and extrapolating this rate of usage, it could probably be successfully argued that the net environmental impact of all the changes required to embody a catalytic converter would far outweigh the benefit to the planet of the presence of a ‘cat’ through the remainder of the car’s life."

[.....and lo, some fell on stony ground....]

This is compounded by the environmental impact of at least two return trips (towing the Westie behind the Disco) to see Dave Walker at Emerald to get the thing set up - that's a further 800 miles at 14mpg - hardly good for the environment is it?

If an environmentally friendly journalist picks up on some of these issues then the MSA may really be in for a rough ride....

[conibear]

So how do you fit a CAT and map engine so we dont reduce power on highly tuned engines

Antbody working on this like Dunnell, SBD, etc for Duratec engines

I see your point, I had not considered the effect it would have on people that need lamda, remap new exhaust etc. etc..

And bearing in mind what Richard wrote it will have a dramatic effect on almost all  

[Richard M Green]

To add fuel to the fire: here is the full text of the letter that I sent to the MSA last year:

Dear Sirs,

Re Consultation and Ratification of Rule Changes

“Proposed: (E) Common Regulations for Competitors Date of Implementation 1 January 2009

12.16.7 Exhaust Catalytic Converters must be fitted to all production based saloon, touring and sports cars including specialist production and kit cars manufactured after 31/12/99.”

Whilst I can fully understand the need of the MSA, and motorsport in general, to be seen to be proactively behaving in an environmentally friendly manner, might I respectfully suggest that this proposed rule might benefit from some refinement in order that all involved in motorsport in UK can be seen to approach such a high-profile issue with one voice.

I think we all agree that any rule, when implemented, should be clear, unambiguous and also realistic in its aims. Unfortunately I fear that the proposed rule regarding catalytic converters does not satisfy these criteria:

Might I perhaps use my own sprint/hillclimb Westfield as an example:

The car is fully road-going (taxed, insured, MoT’d etc), and was built by me in 2001. Immediately after the build was completed, the car was successfully put through the Government’s Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) inspection process, and subsequently given a 1975 ‘N’ suffix registration relating to the age of some of the donor parts.

If one presumes that the word “manufactured” in the proposed rule applies to a home built car in (itself a debate that would keep the lawyers arguing for months), then my car will, after 2009, require a cat in order to be eligible for motorsport, despite the fact that it will not need one for the road.

The car was not designed to accommodate, nor built with, a catalytic converter and to add one now would involve a huge amount of re-work, the cost of which would probably exceed the car’s value.  

Furthermore, given the fact that the car has only covered 4,000 miles in the past seven years, and extrapolating this rate of usage, it could probably be successfully argued that the net environmental impact of all the changes required to embody a catalytic converter would far outweigh the benefit to the planet of the presence of a ‘cat’ through the remainder of the car’s life.

In my case the car does already have fuel injection (which is, as I’m sure you realise, is sine qua non for successful and safe implementation of a catalytic converter) so the costs would relate to making alterations to the engine bay, implementing an exhaust modification and incorporating lambda measurement and control.

However, for those drivers whose cars are equipped with carburettors (as indeed many post-1999 build kit cars are), then they stand to incur considerable expense (even more thousands of pounds) if they wish to continue to compete after 2009. I fear that many will not have the resources to do this and will simply leave the sport, surely not what the MSA had intended to achieve by introducing such a simple new rule.

I also wonder how the rule will apply to ‘one make’ racing formulae such as the 750 Motor Club’s Locost Championship where some cars were built before 1999, and some after. Ignoring for a moment the carburettor issue;  the requirement for the addition of a catalytic converter to certain cars, but not others, will instantly divide the field into two performance classes.

[As an aside, if the word “manufactured” in the new rule is intended to ensure that the rule only applies to kit cars built by the relevant factory, not home built cars, then one wonders what affect the rule will have on the residual value of factory built competition cars…. Or indeed how origin will be proven…]

In summary then, might I suggest that this proposed rule is returned to the appropriate Specialist Committee with the request that they reconsider the aim, the wording of the rule and the implications thereof.

I look forward to hearing your response.

Yours etc"

[Mark Stanton]

Name .......................

Address .....................

Clarification of Rule 12.16.7

"Exhaust catalytic converters must be fitted to all petrol engined production based saloon, touring and sports cars, including specialist production and kit cars manufactured after 31 December 1999."

Q. Please confirm that: Championships first registered prior to 31 December 2007 do not require the above ruling to be a mandatory requirement until 1 January 2009  ?

Q. Please confirm that: For new championships established 2008, this ruling will be mandatory for 2008.  ?

Q. Where kit cars are specifically concerned: e.g. Westfield, Caterham, Locost, Raw Striker, Genesis, MK, Donkevoort etc

Does the term "manufactured" refer to the date of manufacture of the chassis and not that of the overall completion by the independent self builder or it's SVA, date of registration and/or MOT test where road-going. ?  

Q. Will it be mandatory for kit cars manufactured post 31 December 1999 to have a catalytic converter fitted regardless of age of engine, which may be pre 1999 and not designed for use with a catalytic converter. ?  

Q. Please confirm that; Where kit cars are manufactured prior to 31 December 1999 but use an engine of a later date the use of a catalytic converter is not mandatory. ?  

Q. Please confirm that; Where a catalytic converter is mandatory, this is to be applied to all road-going kit cars whether they be Q plated or year plated. ? (Please note that Q plated vehicles are subject to a visible smoke test only when undergoing an MOT)  ?

Q. Please confirm that; Use of a catalytic converter is mandatory, subject to age of manufacture, when a motorbike engine fitment is used for the car build. ?  

Q. Is the rule 12.16.7 applicable to both road-going and modified non-road-going classes of kit car ?  

Q. Please advise that; The use of catalytic converters is to be checked and "policed" by the scrutineers of the meeting, which may from time to time be supplemented with the use of specialist certificated gas analysing equipment with trained operatives ?  

Q. Please confirm that; The ruling 12.16.7 is applicable to all forms of sprinting, hill climbing and circuit racing. ?

and send to   jsymes@msauk.org

.........................................................................................

Is that better for you John      

If anyone needs an envelope or stamp licking then second word is off        

[Terry Everall]

Mark

You are a star

Thanks for the offer to "post off" the letters for us all      

[Mark Stanton]

QUOTE

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but are the MSA the only organisation to run sprint and hillclimbs in the UK, or are their other organisations and bodies that offer competitve motorsport events.

Nope its MSA or nowt  

QUOTE

And bearing in mind what Richard wrote it will have a dramatic effect on almost all

perhaps Ian probably only those in F1 are the only ones not affected          

[Mid life crisis]

Mark

You are a star

Thanks for the offer to "post off" the letters for us all      

If you wan't to ensure a reaction, send it in an A4 envelope and forget the stamp, they will realy appreciate paying the postage    

         

[Mark Stanton]

and my 1988 chassis and modern twin cam engine not needing a Cat ............ so na na na na na na na na na na na                          

For Sale from the Team Stanton garage - a 1996 Sei Wide body in Ivory (also known as magnolia or Navin Beige). Currently powered by a 2 litre pinto, V8 bonnet, discs all round, LSD, 4 point harnesses, full windscreen heater, full weather gear, 15" TSW rims adjustable custom seats - good reliable road car and with some mods suitable for motorsport use without the need of a cat, whatever engine you fit        

Photo's can be sent    

[Mark Stanton]

Wanna photo Mr P  

[Mid life crisis]

Wanna photo Mr P  

A picture of a Millington Duratec is about all I would get a purchase order for, from SWMBO at the moment.   having just bought a new tintop.