machin Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Prompted by Nick Algar’s questions about the speed series and why the numbers are diminishing, and talking to other competitors around the paddock, I think my situation is fairly typical:- 1. Have Westfield, 2. Want to compete against people in similar cars, 3. Don’t want to spend too much money doing so. That last point supposedly being one of the main advantages of hillclimb/speed events over actual racing. However, the current speed series classes actually do nothing to fulfil the last point; even if my driving ability were the same as the C&D class leaders (and I’m not saying it is!) to be competitive with them I would need a car with an engine kicking out approx 125bhp/litre. A quick scan through Burton Power sees that a Ford Duratec with that sort of power/litre is £9275+VAT…. Even going for something from one of the smaller names is still high cost… e.g. Mamba Motorsport, 245bhp 2.0l Duratec :- £7490!!! So now I’m faced with spending that sort of money (ok, I could go for something a bit less tuned, but I’d only regret that in a few seasons wouldn’t I?) or doing something different…. There’s a lot of talk of people in my situation moving to other championships for this exact reason (in fact this season I did stray from the WSCC to join Rob and Colin Way in the HSA championship just so that I could have someone in a similar car to compete against, although I admit another reason was that there were also more rounds close to where we live). One suggestion that was made a little while back by Steve Pritchard was that the classes could be re-organised based on power output rather than capacity. This way it would be possible to compete without needing to spend huge money on steel internals, etc, etc….. as it would be possible to compete using a fairly standard engine (assuming a suitable “low power” class was created). This would hopefully have the result that people would stay with the series, and also may prompt more people to join in. The only problem with this approach is that its very hard to police… rolling roads themselves aren’t even that accurate… so how do you do it? (Even the current rules based on capacity though are actually pretty hard to police!). I’ve always thought the answer lay in the size of carb/throttle body used on the engine, and I’ve done some quick research and I believe it is easily possible to limit the classes based on this approach. I’ve picked two power levels and used data available on the web to support the sizes of carbs or ITB’s. The power levels could be whatever is most appropriate, I’ve just picked 150bhp and 200bhp as examples. The other advantage of this approach is that in the case of carb-engined cars its very easy to police as the model designation is printed on the carb body (I guess ITB’s probably have the size printed on them too). Approx 150bhp ITB Size:- 35mm (calculated using data given on Dunnel website -35mm = 39bhp/cylinder) Max Carb size: 40 DCOE (calculated using Dave Andrew’s website on selection and tuning of Weber DCOE’s, with sample engine being Ford Racing Puma –1700cc, 153bhp @ 7000rpm, -requiring 36mm venturis which is the maximum size that a 40 DCOE can accommodate) Approx 200 bhp ITB Size:- 40mm (calculated using data given on Dunnel website -40mm = 51bhp/cylinder) Max Carb Size: 48 DCOE (e.g. Vulcan Zetec 195bhp uses 48DCOE’s) Discuss....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Ashcroft Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Why don't you consider making you car eligable for the new race series, sealed engines, control parts compeating against the same spec cars on circuits instead. Only a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arm Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Unfortunately money will always buy the best car and parts. Restrict the engine and folk will spend as much on tyres or dampers. For many of us the hillclimb and sprint scene was attractive because it was free from rules. Other championships have the same diversity of cars and there are some high spec ones running in the HSA and Mid Speed and the Midland Hill Climb runs some very expensive motors. The folk who win now may well win anyway irrespective of rules and limits and they are not necessarily the ones spending money on high spec engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Richard Nick's e-mail was not about dwindling numbers - far from it the SS is as strong as ever - its simply that every year we have about 20 or so entrants that only do 2 or 3 events - some register and don't do any. The e-mail was to establish why some register and then don't take it up. You have made the wrong assumption In fact the survey results were promising in that a number of drivers said they dipped their toe in the water with a view to entering more events in 2008 Unfortunately it also highlighted the age old problem of not enough southern events This would hopefully have the result that people would stay with the series, and also may prompt more people to join in. We have many drivers still competing who joined at its inception in 1998 and still attract many newbies every year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Richard I would also point you towards 2 drivers in particular - Tim Pennington and Stuart Hill Tim is a previous winner of the SS Championship - both drivers use X-flows and drive to a budget without spending thousands and regularly achieve class wins beating much higher powered machinery Its about how and where you use it In fact speak to Steve P who this year won the overall Novice championship - he drove an excellent X-flow which did not have as much BHP as some of his fellow competitors. Barry You are trying to be positive about the BARC/WSC championship - which is good - however please don't confuse the two disciplines - they are often very different in car set-up - to take a sprint/hillclimb westfield into the race championship or any race championship is virtually impossible without a full re-build or new car The rules and regs in the BARC/WSC Championship are much more restrictive, which is good for that discipline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu999 Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Measuring class by TB or venturi size is not as straightforward as it first seems either, for various reasons. Some examples - Would the moped engined cars follow the same class structure? Would forced induction cars follow the same structure? What about cars with a single carb? And cars fitted with a single plenum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Keene Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I would also point you towards 2 drivers in particular - Tim Pennington and Stuart Hill Tim is a previous winner of the SS Championship - both drivers use X-flows and drive to a budget without spending thousands and regularly achieve class wins beating much higher powered machinery I reckon Stuart has got one of those fancy ally blocks, bored out to about eleventy million litres... Or at least it b****y should have for the speed he can pedal it at! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 QUOTE Or at least it b****y should have for the speed he can pedal it at! ability or bhp .......................... discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Unfortunately it also highlighted the age old problem of not enough southern events Yep a sprint around Bodmin please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a4gom Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I think your right in debating the class structure but I'm not convinced you can judge on the induction size or police it. e.g i've owned a xflow running on 40's with over 150 hp. I don't think this is going to make it any better. A standard xflow on 40,s will produce somewhere round the 100hp mark if your lucky, pay your money and you will be looking at 170+? If the class structure is up for debate, personally I would suggest the bec to cec cc comparison is one of the first places we should visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 What email? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cast iron Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 As the gaffer says, Nicks email was NOT about dwindling numbers, far from it, just why did people register and do 1 or no rounds? If you did more you wouldn't have recieved the Email. Machin I'm suprised that you can do another championship to be amongst more evenly matched cars as to my knowledge only the WSCC speed series cater for quite a few grades of Westfileds. If you go into another champ. I for example also do Auto66 , I'm up agianst anything on road tyres including Busas with aero screens and I'm a 1600 CEC with a Windscreen As for cost I chucked a weezy 1600 pinto and swapped it for a Zetec SE for 3K std gave 125 at the flywheel and won me the novice award last year This year I added some cams and was still beaten by a crossflow or 2 but managed 2nd in class C GOM I have witnesssed Busas being beaten by 2litre VX's and blades being beaten by 1600 CECs IMHO I think the mix is spot on Most important is to have at least couple of years of stability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 QUOTE What email? It was only sent out to those who had done a very small number of events just to ask why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Ashcroft Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 QUOTE just why did people register and do 1 or no rounds? To get some cheap tyres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterg Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Ok then, I didn't do any events... so how come I didn't get a copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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