recognised club valuation scheme

[neilwillis]

It's gone very quiet.   Are we to take that as a no then?

[Club Secretary (Reserve)]

I'm sure the club could appoint someone, like JeffC as he's in the trade, to give written insurance valuations. The insurance companies will accept this as long as there's back up for proof of specs. For example they will not accept a phone call asking for a £10,000 increase in sums insured without bills for the new engine and gearbox which is the reason for the increase.

If the onwer has proof of value, like receipts and photos of modifications etc, why do we need a club appointed valuer to back this up? The club members can deal direct with the insurers. This is something I would rather do myself than entrust to someone else.

I also admire your confidence that insurance companies will accept a valuation. They may do, they may not, depending on individual circumstances.

Most car clubs have an "agreed value" valuer.

Please provide evidence that this statement is true.

I would advise you to avoid making absolute statements when you cannot possibly have enough samples of evidence to back them up.  

Also, the opinion of a "Club appointed" second hand car dealer who specialises in diesels and has a track record of constantly devaluing our cars whenever someone asks "Is this Westfield worth it?" may not be the best person to ask.

The club can charge, say £25, for the service which can go all to the valuer, all to charity or something between.

Oh, can we? And what does the member get for that? The opportunity to drag his car up to the North East to present it to the aforementioned individual for him to cast his cynical eye over it, say "It's not worth that, big lad" and send the owner on his way? Hardly the sort of thing that most members would consider a good idea, especially when the total costs of this "service" are considered.

And what do the WSCC commitee get in return for offering this seemingly expensive and time consuming "service"? Potential liability issues, potential conflict of interest issues as the chap valuing the cars is a Club member and a car dealer with a possible vested interest, and if enough people want it, VAT issues as detailed in a recent thread regarding commercial advertising questions.

I see it as a Club function and if we don't have it it should be organised asap.

I don't. My colleagues on the Committee dont, and we discuss this and commercial advertising options several times a year.  

The Bottom Line.

The WSCC co not, and currently have, no plans to offer valuations for Westfield Cars. If someone can present a way to do this that avoids the aforementioned conflict of interest, liability and VAT/cost implication issues, we will be happy to hear them.

In the mean time, members have two choices. Contact the Factory on 01384 400077 and ask if they will provide a valuation.

Or do as I (and many others do) which is, keep your receipts. Notify your insurers of any improvements to the car that increase it's value as and when they are complete. Agree the value, then pay any increase in premium that they see fit to impose. Simple, effective, and will cost only the price of a few photos, some time on the photocopier, and a couple of stamps. And please remember, most insurance policies state in the small print that the insurers should be advised immediately if there are any "material changes" that may affect the policy. Expensive modifications that increase value would count, same as getting points on your licence counts. In other words, if you keep to the requirements of your insurance agreement, the question of increased value and therefore increased potential liaility for your insurers, should never arise.

[Norman Verona]

Sorry but I belong to Lotus 7 club and Club Lotus both of whom have an insurance valuation service. In both cases a person with knowledge gets sent full specs and some photos and offers HIS opinion of the value.

If the owner wants to negotiate with the insurance company for a higher value he can.

So 2 out of 3 clubs that I have experience of is "most" for my experience. I see lots of clubs advertise in the Classic car magazines that they have a club valuation scheme.

A question was asked and I offered an opinion. If you think it's not required then fine.

But thers no need to be heavy handed with a response when a polite, "we don't think it's required" will do.

I see no legal risks, no need to drive cars anywhere, and, in my experience all Westfield owners should have a policy with agreed value.

I SUGESTED JeffC as he's a motor trader with experience of the marque. If the factory offer the service that's OK, no need for the club to do it.

I'm sorry he's not your favourite person, I didn't know you think he's not fit for the job.

Let's forget it, I'm sorry I bothered answering.

[JeffC]

woah where did that come from im really not sure I deserved that  Mr secretary

I dont and never have  professed  to be an expert in westy valuations,  you may think Im devaluing cars (thats your opinion) but  Ive given my opinion in the past on threads  based on what Ive seen for sale , fwiw I check pistonheads/ebay/boardroom for sale and autotrader pretty much every day so I have half an idea on used values, as allready suggested there is no guide price for westys  like there is for a used car but to be fair  its not rocket science coming up with a price  just compare whats for sale on the market and compare like for like.  

it looks to me like  the owner of the car that you are getting at (and I agree with Slippy it aint goin to be a quick sale  ) must have researched prices on caterinvan as its not inline of similar speced westys that Ive seen for sale.

its all well and good on the side of the seller if he gets his price but on the reverse side of the coin a buyer isnt getting good value for money if he has paid over the top.

I get loads of emails/pms  from boardroom members asking advice on tintop valuations, Im happy to advise , its easy I open a glass"s guide and relay the info.  I do the same for  board members and north east members that ask me my opinion on westy valuations. Im happy to do it and a  the end of the day its only my view and people will make their own decisions.

After the last couple of months and some of the petty comments about me posting advice with a motive of getting a sale of one of my vehicles etc I certainly wont be posting my views on this type of subject again  , funny as  I was just discussing this very topic today with the club chairman at harewood.

[JeffC]

just to add. last thing I will say on a valuation subject

take a look as an example

here

a bit of advice last year  may have got an early sale for a higher price than the car is now on the market for.

also on the written valuation subject, the factory did my car , but Ive done loads on insurance valuations for north east members, I simply  draught up a company letterhead and my estimation on market repalcement  value,  so Im guessing any motor dealer will be able to help on that .. Ps I dont want the job of doing it but thanks for the thought Norman  

[Club Secretary (Reserve)]

Jeff and Norm.

Lets get one thing straight. I have no issue with either of you personally, so lets put that theory to bed right now.

Jeff.

fwiw I check pistonheads/ebay/boardroom for sale and autotrader pretty much every day so I have half an idea on used values,

No, you don't. You have an idea of what's for sale, and the asking price. This has little to do with the actual selling price or value of the cars in question. Until you inspect the cars, you have no idea what it may actually be worth, same as anyone else. Surely that's rule one, go have a look?

I can tell you that for every request for help you've had, I have had an equal number of members, if not more, come up to me at shows and events mentioning your name and devaluation of Westfields. Whether the facts stand up to close scrutiny or not, the most important thing is the impression you leave. That impression is overwhelmingly (in my experience) a negative one. By all means tell someone that a car is not worth it, but do it by PM or email rather than in public. Surely you can see the sense in what we're trying to say.

Norm.

So most car clubs has now come down to two or the three you have experience of, and a smattering of ads in the press? IE, you have tried to move the goalposts to support your position. If you'd said "most clubs that I have experience of, plus what I have seen in the mags" in the first place, I wouldn't have questioned the statement. But you didn't. It may have been a careless statement to make, but in the circumstances, I couldn't let it pass without clarification.

This subject is too evocative to make unsubstantiated claims or grossly inaccurate statements.

As for me being heavy handed, that's a question of interpretation. Do you honestly think that we haven't heard all these arguments before? The whole point of presenting an in depth response is to demonstrate that we have been over this subject many times before.

To all of you.

If facts are to be presented, please make sure they are accurate, clearly stated, and verifiable. When money is the subject, regardless of the amounts, lets make sure we are all clear and correct when offering advice. I don't think that is an unreasonable request to make.

[JeffC]

I can see the point you are trying to make but I cant recall ever going onto a car for sale thread and posting saying that the car is too expnsive ?

Ive seen plenty of "bargain alert " posts from other people making the seller increase the price then a week later reduce it to where it was.

I have posted if someone asks whats my car worth, they are asking for an opinion. If you dont want a honest answer dont ask the question in the first place.

as Ive said to Mark any opinion In the futureI will give via Pm.

the truth sometimes isnt what people want to hear, you build a car for £20k then sell it for £14k , what do you expect you buy all the parts at retail price with prob a 30-40% mark up. at the end of the build thats the 30-40% you will loose ..

It would be excellent to get your money back but it aint going to happen and no comment I make will change that..

No, you don't. You have an idea of what's for sale, and the asking price. This has little to do with the actual selling price or value of the cars in question

your missing the point thats how it works as advertised cars is the market into which you are advertising your car , the selling price is irrelevant as any buyer also doesnt know the prices cars are sold for.

this is the only gauge of price you have for cars like this and you need to get the price right to sell. people are not ignorant its so easy with the internet  to compare prices.

this is how I run my "second hand car dealer business" and for me doing it this way it works, forget what any book or price guide will tell you the current changing market dictates the selling price.

[Club Secretary (Reserve)]

Absolutely no problem with people not wanting to hear the truth. That's life. And as I have already stated, whatever your defence, right or wrong, the impression people coming to me have is that you aren't doing Westfield residuals any favours at all.

As for how the market works, I agree to a point, but for kit cars or specialist cars, the cars and the market are variable enough such that the prices asked may not necessarilly reflect the actual value, whether it's more or less than advertised, and I strongly believe (as an owner for 18 years, and I'll bet I've looked at more Westfields than you! ) there is no way even an experienced trader could tell the true value of a Westfield without viewing the car in person.

Regardless, when  it comes time to sell my car, it most certainly won't be going in Autotrader, it won't be on Pistonheads, and sadly it won't be being advertised on here either. What does that tell you about the market and the effect public comment has on it?

[Asterix]

suggest that the three of you go for a virtual beer via a private reply all email/ pm conversation before this goes any further.

Not worth it in the end.

[jak]

I think that everyone needs to calm down a bit.

Lets all pull up a chair and have a beer before it gets out of hand.

John.

[Norman Verona]

Sorry but theres two sunjects here. See my post at the top about a "Glasses/Cap" valuation for sale/purchase.

I was talking about Agreed insurance values and I'll stand by the claim that most clubs that deal with specialist vehicles have made arangements for agrred insurance valuations.

If the club doesn't feel this is required then fine, there's no need to respond in the manner the Club Sec. has.

Not really a good example of a friendly attitude to the members.

If I had more experience of Westfields I would volunteer to do it (if required) I only suggested Jeff as he's in the trade and will be acceptable to an insurance company for agreed valuations.

I'm sorry I mentioned it now but it was raised and I gave an opinion.

Can we all forget it, please?

[tex]

i think guys you should remember I STARTED this lol... as in true 118 118 / scouser fashion..... 'calm down - calm down'......

the original post was how to keep the value of westfields and sevens alike - meant as an open discussion of an important issue being left to outside market pressures.. it will affect everyone on here.

the topic of insurance valuations - my car is insured with a guaranteed value - if you think its worth more - you pay more premium... simple.

thats not what the topic is about..

when i mentioned about a 'GUIDE'... for prices... it was throwing ideas into the pot for discussion not a fight about i know more than you etc... and not about allocating jobs etc .... simply could the club as a whole have a sliding scale ball park figure for certain models which then is still open to variations due to spec between different cars...

if the club had something like that it would stop the spiral down to REALLY SILLY prices which is coming..

mark - i think you owe jeff an apology mate - he has done more to INCREASE the owners of westfields than anyone i know period.. not through selling of cars but by people wanting to join.. i run the website up here with contact pages - the amount of people i have seen contact me and ask how to join, buy, thinking about it and then a few months later... they are driving one... jeff does a lot and doesnt deserve a slanging...

neil said who would run the valuation ? were a club arent we? we do!! a discussion to give a base line for model pricing is a good idea in my opinion.. for example . . . i right off my car - the insurance is to pay - how is it valued? if they come back and say '3k... its old and thats it' - would you accept that? sure i wouldnt... if we had some ammo to use as a guide to give back to them fine...

this does need healthy discussion and not a fight and maybe by trying we might have something worthwhile... others do - why not us?

[Club Secretary (Reserve)]

mark - i think you owe jeff an apology mate

You're right, I do.

Norm and Jeff.

After a re-read of what I have said here, I would like to offer you both an unreserved apology for any offence caused. It was not, and is not my intention to cause offence. I was trying to ensure that the debate moved along with accurate clear facts, and in amongst the discussion I am afraid I got rather too carried away with the detail and lost sight of the bigger picture. I will continue to try to ensure that any fatcs are indeed correct, but I will also try to make sure that I don't succumb to the red mist whilst I do it.

Tex.

neil said who would run the valuation ? were a club arent we? we do!! a discussion to give a base line for model pricing is a good idea in my opinion.. for example . . . i right off my car - the insurance is to pay - how is it valued? if they come back and say '3k... its old and thats it' - would you accept that? sure i wouldnt... if we had some ammo to use as a guide to give back to them fine...

Unfortunately, insurance companies almost certainly won't listen to an owners group with a vested interest, which is why such a venture is probably doomed to failure. For a valuation to be worth anything it needs to be either from the manufacturer with an appropriately set up corporate policy for such things, or from a wholly independent body or individual who cannot be accused of bias or vested interest. Club members and Committee members fall in to the vested interest category.

If anyone can provide me with the contact details of a specialist vehicle owners club that does such a thing (NOT the L7Club Norm! ! ! ) I would be delghted to contact their valuations person to see if it would be a viable thing for us to take on in the future.

[Norman Verona]

Mark,

The L7 club use an ex club member who is a Lotus Dealer. I have no idea what job he does thee.

I have some contacts in the insurance world and will seek advice but my understanding is that insurers will accept an independant valuer who has knowledge of the marque.

I think it's important for members to have an agreed value which won't leave them way out of pocket should the car be written off.

Had I not listened to this advice a few months before my accident I would have been seriously out of pocket following my accident.

[Mark Stanton]

The L7 club use an ex club member who is a Lotus Dealer............

.................... but my understanding is that insurers will accept an independant valuer who has knowledge of the marque.

and bingo nail on head hit with a big ammer                    

step forward any WSCC Committee member or club member with the necessary and recognised professional specialist skills      

Remember a while back a thread with WSC Ltd offering to inspect and certificate cars and how that idea was rubbished by a number of members     damned if you do and damned if you don't