adhawkins Posted September 16, 2004 Posted September 16, 2004 Anyone know any builders? Actually, scrub that. We'll get Martin's (a non Westfield driving mate) dad to do it... Andy Quote
woodman Posted September 16, 2004 Posted September 16, 2004 etc.Therefore i take exception ,when people tell me to go and play with the mod prods, what they omit to mention is that i will have to spend upwards of £2000 for two sets of wheels plus a set each of slicks and wets.And finally, if WESTFIELD gets round to producing a car with a sequential box does that not set a precident,best regards .By Mod /Prod I meant class E or F road cars running on acb10 or similar not Slick cars in G or H Quote
Turbo Tommo Posted September 16, 2004 Posted September 16, 2004 TOMMO, NEXT TIME YOUR NEAR MY CAR STOP AND CHECK THE TONNEAU, YOU WILL FIND ITS MADE FROM A FLEXIBLE SINGLE LAYER CARBON SHEET! THEREFORE IT IS FLEXIBLE AND NOT SOLID, FLEXIBLE GET IT FLEXIBLE Yeah, like to see you fold it up and put it away Quote
Blatman Posted September 16, 2004 Posted September 16, 2004 That's exactly the sort of rule interpretation/ambiguity that keeps these discussions going round in circles... Smithys tonneau (Bros, please note correct spelling! ) is indeed flexible. Is it the same sort of flexible as the rule makers had in mind? Who knows, and it's the same point Micky is making. However, I thought the sequentials were originally banned because there was a question about wether the casing conformed to the "unmodified" and/or "original material" section of the regs, and not because they were simply a performance advantage. I can't remember what the outcome was of that, but I also believe the ban was continued for 2B because of the developement costs and the effect that had on potential newcomers to the SS. I'll stand to be corrected on that though... Oh, and Westfield need to produce 25+ cars with sequentials before they become "legal"... I think... Quote
DickieB Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 I think: a. The 1800cc split should revert to 1700cc as per national norms. b. The rest of the classes are superb, offering excellent progression for those who (inevitably) want more. c. The true novice classes (A and B) should have some more rules, for example compulsory use of synchromesh standard H pattern non-dog box, no wide track etc. Edit: This should encourage people to improve driving before spending money. And anyone who wants to upgrade eqpt to that extent should no longer be a novice. d. Eligibility in all classes must be rigorously enforced. And that is a fellow competitor's responsibility too - there is no point complaining on here at the end of a season about someone, do it there and then at the event or immediately afterwards with the SS organising body. e. The reason that you don't get enough entrants at individual events is because you have too many events (26 I think), or too few counting rounds (10) The proportion is wrong. Make it 20 out of 26, or 10 out of 15 and then you will have enough entrants. f. Testing would be far more effective for most people than spending thousands on the car. But most people are time limited and can't take days off work, and many are money limited. Dickie PS The guys in Class C are easily catchable without paying huge amounts. A 160 - 170 BHP engine will do the trick nicely. Quote
Terry Everall Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 Westfield do already produce cars with sequential boxes . They are called BEC's ! Mod Prod is not class E or F cos they run on Group 1B tyres and not slicks Quote
felters Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 Oh, and Westfield need to produce 25+ cars with sequentials before they become "legal"... I think... So where would that put me with a Toyota engine? Factory haven't made any as far as I know I still maintain that you are racing in the wrong series if you want a genuinely level playing field... PS Blatters - well done on "tonneau" - shame about "whether" Quote
Blatman Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 b******* The Toyota is a production engine. Engines produced in numbers greater than 5000 can be fitted to any car you want, and still be legal for road going classes. It's in the Blue Book... Quote
Blatman Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 Mod Prod is not class E or F cos they run on Group 1B tyres and not slicks The SS definition of Mod Prod differs from the Blue Book Mod Prod. IIRC, it was "invented" to allow BEC's and CEC's to go head to head with comparable equipment, namely 1B's and aero screens. IMHO, it's been one of the more successful "inventions" by the SS rule makers... Quote
RICHARD+PHILIP Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 There is a nice little paragraph in the SS regs which says regulations must be applied within the letter and THE SPIRIT of the rules If I had a length of angle iron long enough it would be flexible (look at a 747 Wing) Phil Quote
RICHARD+PHILIP Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 PS If westfield do ever produce 15 cars with sequential boxes as standard then I would be happy to let them into the std road going classes. Infact I would be ringing on Quaife doorbell to get one myself but they havn't. Quote
ACW Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 Westfields aren't production cars or kit cars according to MSA. There is a simple an effective method for having a car judged in each series it competes with either the series co-ordinators or the MSA. This may require the production of a fee returnable when you win. This is the procedure. b***hing if someones toneau is flexible or not on a public forum etc is not that procdure. If competitors within Marks class believed there was a breech with his car they would complain through the proper channels either with the SS or other championships Mark competes. They haven't - Why because it's a friendly series, it isnt the reason Mark has beaten them etc.. Dont try to read the BB to closely and guess how it applies, if you need clarification you need to request it from them officially. It is written deliberately non commital in certain areas. All that said, I think if there are individuals who are running foul of regulations, then it is up to fellow class competitors to bring this to the attention of the organisers. I still find it in one way unbelievable that Tommo, in a car so outside of the on the day class structure, 1st place at Llandow on the day was allowed to stand because no one within that class was bothered to point it out to the clerk before the results went final. That said, it is good indication of the frendliness within the speed series rather than backstabing. Quote
Ian Podmore Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 The 1,700 divide.... I'm one of the few who is in 1,700 / 1,800 grey area. What it means to me is that I prefer to choose to do SS events and compare my performance in the SS classes rather than 2A / 2B. If the SS went to a 1,700 split I for one would probably not travel as far and would do more events 2 miles from my house at Curborough instead as I'm not trophy hunting (and that's a good job). But then I'd miss a day out with friends from the WSCC I could make my 1,800 more powerful of course if I had a spare £3,000 so I could compete in 2B on a more level standing, but I haven't Unless someone came along with a 200bhp 1,800 engine to the SS, then I think that the 1,800 split is OK for the SS, but as soon as someone came in with a well tuned 1800/16V engine it would spoil the reason for the 1800 split if you get my drift. Quote
Guest Posted September 17, 2004 Posted September 17, 2004 That said, it is good indication of the frendliness within the speed series rather than backstabing. Don't think anyone is "back stabbing" are they? I think the individuals named on this thread are only being named so as to produce a demonstrable example of where the rules "may be" being bent a little. (supporting Tommo - you owe me a pint) For the record; I have no problem with anyone who wants to move suspension pick ups, run on illegal (road) tyres - or spend shed loads on a sexy engine / gearbox. That is the individuals prerogative. If I thought it was sooooooo big a problem, I would have complained in the official manner - as I am sure we all would have. I just think it is a shame that we are allowing cars to open up a performance difference inside "same standard" classes due to modifications outside the "spirit" of the rules (if not the letter of the rules indeed). Life ain't fair - never will be - but we could try to make it a little more fair by adhering to the SS rules and the spirit within which the series was initiated. Said it before - saying it again; back to basics please. Reaches for coat - heads out into the rain Quote
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