I have a dream.

[felters]

I thought that a major element of sprint/hillclimbing was self improvement?

Westfields are such diverse cars that someone will always have an advantage - be it the gearbox or whatever. The chances of your spec being optimum for your chosen series is pretty remote. If you really want close racing on a "level playing field" then you should consider Kent engined Formula Ford (the regs are watertight and haven't changed for thirty years) or any of the myriad one make (Fulda Fiat Uno/Mighty Mini/Stock Hatch etc.) championships. All as cheap as chips - in relative terms.

I'll get my coat...

[waynem]

Maybe there should be an ultra-roadgoing class...

Working heaters, wipers, carpets, spare wheel, the wife in the passeger seat and some bags bungeed to the back....

Wayne M

[Ian Podmore]

This is always going to be a difficult situation, and unless you specify identical cars for a class, someone is always going to gain advantage.  And even with identical spec's there's still room for variation.

I would love to have a class for those of us that really do drive to events in road going 'touring biased' cars, take the spare off, and leave a pile of stuff under the hood whilst we are competing.  But even then, you could still do this with Kevin's, Tim N's, and the Magnolia One when it was in class A/C.  It is just too difficult to define. You could have power/weight classes but that doesn't fit in with the rest of the MSA classes so would be meaningless.  I'm already out on a limb compared to the MSA classes as I run 1,796cc in the 1,800 WSCC class, but the standard divide is 1,700 for the MSA.

i suspect that none of the novices upgraded from this year will do any better next year

Anyway, I still enjoy what I do, and will continue to do so in class C. There may well end up being 2 levels of speed in the class but it won't bother me as they are sooo far in front I'm to busy concentrating on trying to beat my own times most of the days anyway.

And Mr S, will you please hurry up with that new VX unit.....

     

[Mark Stanton]

Wind up season has started early for 2005                          

[markboyce]

Does fitting a sequential 'box actually give that big an advantage? I don't think it does. I'd back this up with some evidence, but my source is currently unavailable

indirectly it does.....  Try using lightweight 7.25 or 5.5" clutches with a normal box and the synchro's will last no time what so ever....

Fit them to a dog box or sequential which you need to do to get the best from the gearboxes and you can take the benefit a light flywheel gives you

cheers

mark

[Mark Stanton]

And Mr S, will you please hurry up with that new VX unit.....

I know much shame on me       Wotbox can drive it sooooooooooo much better than me     Mind you probably 99.9% of the SS drivers can as well       Oh for some kind of driving ability      

But there again it is a completely standard stock engine other than TB's, ARP bolts and dry sump - no trick cams or pistons or crank         Honest - I personally wouldn't use em in a standard road going class          

[mhc]

Just to keep the kettle boiling; as i have already stated it costs more to upgrade an engine than a gearbox. Any type of upgrade carried out by one person gives an "unfair advantage" to those unable or unwilling to follow suit.

With  regard to making up the numbers, 99.9% of us will make up the numbers because there can be only one speed series champion. In my opinion due to to his results, ARM  would have made an worthy champion this year . He has been denied owing to the lack of entries in his class due in part to the large number of classes  . Therefore, can someone please tell me if it's possible to amend the classes and clarify the regs early this year. Will those responsible look kindly on sequential gearboxes for the road going classes,( 2a &2b )because their time will come.sooner rather than later, hurry up WESTFIELD SPORTS CARS, regards

[Blatman]

Does fitting a sequential 'box actually give that big an advantage? I don't think it does. I'd back this up with some evidence, but my source is currently unavailable

indirectly it does.....  Try using lightweight 7.25 or 5.5" clutches with a normal box and the synchro's will last no time what so ever....

Fit them to a dog box or sequential which you need to do to get the best from the gearboxes and you can take the benefit a light flywheel gives you

cheers

mark

Hmmmm.... light flywheel gives more benefits than just gearchange time though, so I think the differences are *really* small, IE small enough to not actually make any *significant* difference in the real world. There are too many other variables that will eat in to your time which the odd millisecond here or there won't make up.

I think if you are quick enough with the gear change (and my source is still not available to view ) then sequential is not the massive advantage that it is claimed when compared to an H gate dog box. There is obviously an advantage over a synchro box, so no argument there. We could turn this on it's head too. Given those circumstances, is there a case for disallowing dog boxes in road going classes? That would get the chattering classes going...

Does Smithy run a sequential box?

[Mark Stanton]

At the end of the day Mr C - its a free country with freedom of choice - You may enter any championship that you feel best befits your abilities, your car, your locality and your enjoyment requirements        

2005 Regs will be issued as soon as possible around November / December time - no decisions have been made formally on any rulings as yet - this will not be until after 2004 season ends    

The correct manner for any proposals or suggestions for Class amendments, tweaks and fettles may be submitted by post or e-mail     as many folks have done already -

 

[mhc]

Mark , has you say it is a free country and i do have freedom of choice ,which is why i want to play in the speed series, it is also a democracy ,perhaps the competitors should have some say in the framing of the classes and the regs.As for emails ,thats what i,am doing,regards.

[ACW]

my musing on the subject are:

* I think we should have a really roadgoing class to bring in new folks into competitive sprinting. Yes the atmosphere is a great draw BUT if you percieve that you havent got a chance because of the other machinery been in a 'different class'  then it will lead to lack of interest = BAD for the series.

I would suggest having a real roadgoing class and a super roadgoing class. This would then put a lot of machinery into a super roadgoing  = big single class. I think items such as dog box, ally cases, moved suspension pickup, non standard suspension, bald tyres, no MOT could/should be movers to super roadgoing.

* target times or other means of changing point scoring need to be considered carefully. IMHO the problem people are complaing of are that the expert type classes dont have sufficient members compared with the begineer classes will be addressed NEXT year becasue of THIS years rules. ie there will be considerably more experts next year. This means we are considering changing a system before it has actually been tested as good / bad. The test will be next year. Also whilst I think both Ash, and Tim and many others have had an excellent season and deserve to do well I am not sure changing the target times would necessarily change the situation in the future. I looked at a total best time over events that they both competed with after Harewood and compared it with the total time between them and second place:

Tim Total: 514.84   Tim Total Gain Time: 19.37   3.762%

Ash Total: 476.54   Ash Total Gain Time: 7.71    1.618%

so looking at target times (which I appreciate the above doesnt do) would probably produce much the same results.

Were target times applied retrospectively I suspect it would help Ash for this year, but they can't be. If however this years times are used for target times next year all this does is mean that Ash's hard work this year makes next year even harder. Should the championship overall be his target this still means that if that is what he is set on he needs to either change class or championship so how does this help over the current situation ?

And all this is before you get into the nitty gritty of wet/dry etc....

Class winning drivers are best driver/car package in thier class

Championship winner is a best driver in class who happens to be in the right class with the right turn of events. Every year it will come down to a load of what if's that had more to do with other people than the performance of the driver/car.

[ACW]

I'm with MHC. Gearboxes are cheap overall in top spec cars.

I think that sequential has a small difference over that of dog vs Syncro. However I believe that if you can fit 6 gears into the space that someone else has 4 with a dog change then there is an advantage there.

light flywheel will help esp on revvy engines. you'd be surprised how much power a heavy flywheel needs to be accellerated.

[mhc]

At last, a positive step forward, clear and concise, lets hope we can now have a public debate on the subject with a vote on the new classes and regs for the next season. Well done Webmaster.

[ACW]

how is the DIY getting on

[Mark Stanton]

I'm with MHC. Gearboxes are cheap overall in top spec cars.

Agreed on top spec cars    

But should we pit them in same class against a true novice on a budget in a true roadgoing class         Surely things like seq/dog boxes and the like would possibly be better suited to a semi-mod type of class      

Tooooo many variants "wibble"