hilux Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Are there any Project Managers here? You know Risks Assessments then. You judge Impact against Probability and come out with a Risk. If you think that the Probability of a rollover is slight, it weighs in your favour for not taking the ultimate precautions. However the Impact of a rollover has to be viewed as serious, which weighs in favour of taking more precautions. Your view of one over the other is your personal judgement of the risk. Absolutely spot on. The risk is small but the implications outweigh the risk. Firstly IMO Westfield accurately call their standard bar a `roll over bar` Thats exactly what it is. If your car rolled laterally it would probably deform but offer a degree of protection........ .........however, its no good when friction and momentum come into play with forward/backward motion. Theres probably over .3 tonnes weight on it when upside down (more like .4 tonnes in a V8) plus the doubling of that with the friction/snatch factor with the road. Put say .5/.6 tonnes on your standard `roll over bar` with your car vertical and see if it deflects (bet it does) whether it has one bolt or three. All structures rely upon triangulation/bracing other wise the westy chassis would have none...... Secondly IMO the standard bar is tooooo low (even the RAC bar is really too short/marginal for people moderately above average height) Sit in your car and take a string line from the bar to the top front of your engine (the front `hard point` when you are inverted) then assume slack in your belt cos no-one incl me has them as tight as they should be and see if your head has a 50mm safety margin. Add a crash helmet and you`ll need a 100mm min safety margin. Bottom line is that these cars are low volume and significantly less able in a crash so why not protect yourself and add a bit of rigidity to the car. I`ve just welded in roll over hoops and am trying to consider how to fit side impact protection cos the easiest accident to kill you in these cars IMO (mine included) is a T bone at relatively low speed. All the above is my personal opinion and equally everyone is entitled to theirs, I felt that if put in many different ways then standard bar owners will begin to see that what they have is purely cosmetic/not fit for purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 I have posted this on another link see here. But thought it might be worth double posting over here as well I have taken some measurement the end of last week off my race car. With a GRP shell for a seat i.e. me almost sitting on the floor I would need a roll bar 500mm high to comply with the RAC regs. If you look the regs state that the bar must be a min of 50mm above you helmet and also that if you pull a string from the first solid thing in front of you i.e. the engine to the top of the roll bar you helmeted head should not be above this line. I am 6 foot and was amazed how high the roll bar needed to be to cover this. The Westfield issue roll bar is 410mm aprox and not tall enough for me by a long way. unless you are under 5"7 I would think that the Westyfield issue is a bit of a risk for a race car. Right I have done the sums and taken the photos here is the first. Custom roll bar 500mm high me sitting in a Plays-Kool R500 style seat ie sitting on the floor almost. The string goes over the top of the engine and over the top of the roll bar. My head is just below the upper bit of string. So all is well The sting has been tied off at 420mm so a little higher than the Westfield supplied roll bar. From this photo you can see me head and neck would be a bit of a mess with a skid lid on. Last photo this is the scary one as I have no skid lid on: down: string at Westfield supplied RAC roll bar height and my head is just in the safety zone. That said if the car went over and the harness stretched a bit my ugly face would take a real battering. In light of other post on today a cage or custom roll bar is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Purves Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Matt Off topic but whats with what looks like a bent rim in the last photo. However pics are good and show what is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Matt Off topic but whats with what looks like a bent rim in the last photo. Must be something to do with the FB sat in the car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oioi Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 matt - have you stolen my car looks very similar perhaps your just copying my - clearly great - style OiOi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 No sorry oioi I dont have a purple nob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 You would if you went blatting yp ere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oioi Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 *witty come back mode on* my nob may be purple, but your helmet is green, I suggest you see a doctor... *witty come back mode off* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cox Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Last photo this is the scary one as I have no skid lid on: down: string at Westfield supplied RAC roll bar height and my head is just in the safety zone. That said if the car went over and the harness stretched a bit my ugly face would take a real battering. Matt, was that last photo before or after the accident Does make you think though...a cage...another thing to add to my list of things I can't afford. (I know, I also can't afford neurosurgery). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Matt, was that last photo before or after the accident Thanks for your kind words Pete that is most defiantly before. If I skidded upside down at any speed I could do £3000 of cosmetic improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartT Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Interesting reading regarding harnesses, I actually got round to adjusting mine properly before the (fateful) trip to Le Mans, which ended nose in to a lamppost somewhere near Salisbury. I was held firmly in my seat and fortunately only suffered minor whiplash. having had 15 years without an accident, it does make you realise how easy it is to get it wrong, whether driving a Westie or otherwise. I currently have a standard *roll*bar, but have put an RAC bar as number 1 on my priority list. I'm not sure when I will be able to afford this, but I'm also not sure I can afford not to. take care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cox Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Thanks for your kind words Pete that is most defiantly before. If I skidded upside down at any speed I could do £3000 of cosmetic improvements. LOL Editted to say, I wonder how the different engine sizes/locations affect the clearance you show? (i.e. it's skidlid minimum clearance already, what if the engine was smaller/ further back?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Seabrook Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I wonder how the different engine sizes/locations affect the clearance you show? (i.e. it's skidlid minimum clearance already, what if the engine was smaller/ further back?). Yep my engine is a long way forward and a Vx at that so a more compact Zetec in an MT75 chassis would make things worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cox Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I wonder how the different engine sizes/locations affect the clearance you show? (i.e. it's skidlid minimum clearance already, what if the engine was smaller/ further back?). Yep my engine is a long way forward and a Vx at that so a more compact Zetec in an MT75 chassis would make things worse. ...or even an Xflow or a BEC! Hopefully, no-one's running a rear engined Westie without a cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 All right,heres an even harder one....which song had the line....roll another one,just like the other one Cheesy roll,prize for this un Don't Bogart That Joint, My Friend. Little Feat classic. Not the original I'm afraid Oh and Roll over Beethoven wos The Electric Light Orchestra.......What a dim lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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