Not a nice end for a Caterham

[mb893]

An interesting site: Safety

[Mark Stanton]

Some very interesting reading amongst these posts and yep its is sad to hear of anyone involved in any form of accident whatever they are driving    

Thing is with this kind of topic it is often very difficult to separate feelings and emotion from fact, without wishing to seem callous in any way    

Westfield, Caterham and many other sevenesque manufacturers sell differing styles of roll bar, they're called roll bars because they are "fact" - Do we expect anti roll bars to stop us rolling ?? think not  

Fact is roll bars of any kind are not a legal requirement for any vehicle open top or tin-top - whether we agree with the legislation or not - there's probably not much we can do about it.

The car companies that do sell roll bars do so in all good faith offering styles from a single piece unit to a fully braced or full cage system - in someways we Westfield and Caterham drivers are very fortunate in that we have all options open to us.

And that IMHO is where we are at - its is each individual builders choice and preference to install whatever roll bar they choose - we are all grown ups and nearly adults     with the freedom of choice - as we are for what we choose to use any car for in whatever circumstances - and for that we should be careful perhaps in "assumptions" that can be made from such photos being published without knowledge of the full and complete facts.

For instance - was this particular roll bar "homemade" ?? Was it suffering from internal metal fatigue ?? was the driver speeding and driving in a dangerous manner ?? were they drunk or on drugs ??

Therse are some assumptions anyone could make and I am certainly not saying that any are true far from it.

Merely that until the full facts are known from any inquiry held into such matters - then its is extremely difficult to come to any decision.

Similarly - has anyone ever thought that perhaps in todays litigation ridden society and commercial solicitors abound - that perhaps comments made here could quite possibly be taken as "expert comment" and jeopardise any legitimate case - OTT perhaps - who knows    

I'll get me coat      

[cash]

the first point i also think is a big pile of poo (a steamy one at that)! i would argue your more likely to switch of in your tin top and not concentrate so much.

We get a post about once a month on here where someone has been trying, and met with a kerb or something, or has had a problem in the wet and "had an off". Some Westfield drivers will drive beyond their limits or beyond the limits for the conditions, which is no better than a Focus driver nodding off..... HOWEVER, that is precisely when you'll be glad you had a *proper* roll bar, 'cos a kerb will tip you over easy enough. Rolling down a grass bank won't do you much good, and it'll be worse if the car flips. Add in the chocolate standard roll bar, and you'll be lucky to escape with your life, let alone your cervical vertebrae intact.

And has been pointed out, it's about choice, and how you assess the risk. This is blurred somewhat by Westfield marketing the standard bar as a roll bar. I think most of us agree that ths could be interpreted as mis-leading, depending on how you interpret the term roll bar.

FOR ME, the risk of rolling the car is low, BUT I still want to protect myself against this eventuality. After all, as has been ably demonstrated by Barbarella, it may not be my fault that I find myself rolling down a grass bank....

well said blatman

the westfield is a sportcar and will be driven as such by everyone that owns one maybe not all the time but you will push it otherwise you wouldnt have bought one you would be driving a volvo estate or any other boring car.thats why you need proper roll over protection preferably a bar that is above your head

[Mark Stanton]

thats why you need proper roll over protection preferably a bar that is above your head

In your opinion     it is each individuals choice - everyone can look around see whats availble and make their own choice        

My choice is to use a braced RAC roll bar as well   but if the man next to me wants to use a chrome single piece unit then fine - its his decision      

See folks this really is a very emotive thread   and stirs up quite a few personal feelings on the matter  

[juansolo]

I told him that I couldnt afford a decent one, cos i wanted to blow my money on trackdays.

I have seen a few cars go over and know of at least one 7 that has.  Quite simply if you do trackdays you put yourself more at risk of flipping a car.  All it takes is for you to hit the grass sideways and for it to be a bit boggy.  It digs in and your over.

This all comes back to the price you put on your head.  I personally would not go on track in a Caterfield without suitable roll over protection.  Similarly you should really spend as much as you can afford on a decent helmet.

If your head sticks up above the bar, regardless of how strong it is, and you go over, you're f**ked.  If you're wearing a harness you'll be locked upright and 500+ kilos of a car on your head is going to smart a little.  If your travelling it's probably going to file it down a little too.

As I say, you pay your money and you take your choice.  However I think my head is worth every penny of £200 and I even plan to spend 5 times that on a cage when funds allow.

[Nick M]

and for that we should be careful perhaps in "assumptions" that can be made from such photos being published without knowledge of the full and complete facts.

For instance - was this particular roll bar "homemade" ?? Was it suffering from internal metal fatigue ?? was the driver speeding and driving in a dangerous manner ?? were they drunk or on drugs ??

I'm not sure people drew assumptions from the pictures - the bar failed - fact not assumption.  I recall the threads on the se7ens list and some of the facts surrounding the failure in that the bar dug into the ground while the car was still travelling forwards.

How the driver was driving and whether they were drunk are, IMO, completely irrelevant.  If the bar fails it fails - it doesn't really matter, other than perhaps in extreme cases, how it was being used and whether that may have contributed to the failure.  If it was anything other than a cosmetic item it should have been designed with such circumstances in mind, i.e. retaining integrity when there is a forward element to the crash rather than just a pure roll.

The first two points are valid though.  Indeed, it's one of the things which you might want to bear in mind when looking at a second hand car, particularly an older one - is the roll-bar still structurally sound ?

[Nick M]

However I think my head is worth every penny of £200 and I even plan to spend 5 times that on a cage when funds allow.

Except a cage can be had for less than that.  The difference between an RAC bar and a full bespoke cage is less than 4 times the cost of an RAC bar.  In fact, it's only marginally over 3 times the cost.

[Stuart]

All right,heres an even harder one....which song had the line....roll another one,just like the other one

Cheesy roll,prize for this un

Don't Bogart That Joint, My Friend.  Little Feat classic.

[juansolo]

However I think my head is worth every penny of £200 and I even plan to spend 5 times that on a cage when funds allow.

Except a cage can be had for less than that.  The difference between an RAC bar and a full bespoke cage is less than 4 times the cost of an RAC bar.  In fact, it's only marginally over 3 times the cost.

Narrow + not a group buy.  Also I want different side protection as the ones on your car would be in the way of where my arms are.  Gonna have to be a custom job.  I reckon it'll cost me about £1k.

[Blatman]

I want a narrow one too, but not 'til the off season. So we have the beginnings of a group buy. However, it's waaaaay too soon to plan this. We should put our heads together later in the year perhaps. I'm sure there'd be a few narrow body driving Speed Series bods that would be interested, especially if we can get them down to the 700 quid I *think* the wide body chaps payed

Actually, they should be cheaper. Less metal used

[juansolo]

Aren't the SE and SEi rear RAC rear stay mounts different?

Deffo up for a GB.

[Blatman]

Dunno. Never thought about it.....

[juansolo]

Pretty sure they are.  Same on an Wide but different on a narrow.

[scott beeland]

And for what its worth don't go for blats down country lanes , you are just asking to die.

Bit of generalisation there Harv.

I agree; no one should drive past their/ the roads limits when out on a blat; but country roads are perfect territory for any se7enesque car.

Only the very desperate ask to die

[Al Yupright]

Only the good die young.

...all the evil seem to live for ever.