Not a nice end for a Caterham

[adhawkins]

Anyway sod RAC bars, what about if a badly driven EVO 7 T bones you (nearly happened) You want side impact protection, you want a full cage, anythig less and you are risking your life

Andy

[oioi]

The difference between your example and the Focus, is that you are far more likely to A) "Try" in the Westfield, and B), Accidents happen.

err hor****e Mr Blatman!

lets start with the second statement - B) accidents happen.

err and theres a difference between a westfield and a focus how in that statement    

the first point i also think is a big pile of poo (a steamy one at that)! i would argue your more likely to switch of in your tin top and not concentrate so much.  even tho speeds are less likelihood of an accident is increased cos concentration levels are not so high. not many of us get in our se7ens every day, regardless of how tired/stressed/hungover we are and drive 25miles to work.

OiOi

[ACW]

The fact is that this car has been involved in a serious accident which also appears to have been on a public road. In an accident like this will break stuff. having a various additional saftey items will help the outcome but what concerns me more is looking at the cause of the accident than the result.

If this accident had happened somewhere else, had there been people in and around the area of the accident, then those folks would likely be killed regardless of the fitment of rac bar or whatever.

I think we would get into a dangerous mindset with the thought that because someone mis-uses a product, the result is directly the fault of the manufacturer. I take gun and kill you - It's not my fault sue smith and weston.

In this case the manufacture has meet the design criteria, the folks survived in what can only be described as a severe test that would out do any standard tests that tin tops are subjected to. I suspect you could choose a variety of tin top cars from major manufacturers, that would not have such a good outcome.

The standard roll bar may not be as good as a RAC bar which might not be as good as a full cage ...... you take your choice. If you are planning on tracking the car or indeed competing then sure the full or rac bar is a sesnible choice. On the other hand if you are the sort of individual who thinks of using the car in its full capability on the roads then you'd better apply the same safety precautions but at the end of the day is yours.

I dont understand the mindset that it is the maufacturers responsibility to make the choice for you, or to remove your choice. where do you draw the line.

[Al Yupright]

For what I use my car for, I now would not replace the car with anything without a full cage.

Would be good to see some pictures from FEA software comparing the deflections of the different bar/cage styles under the same loadings.

The MSA/FIA are obviously still strengthening requirements of cages, cos as of 2004 all (newly homologated) FIA approved rollbars and cages have to have an X brace rather than just a \ brace.

[oioi]

good point Mr Webmaster sir.

[markboyce]

or ...... which most of you seem to have forgotten... due to the low height of the standard bar (to take account of the hood) most peoples head stick way above the bar anyway and in some peoples cases above the height of the RAC bar....   The point of any roll over bar in that case seems pretty limited anyway..  

I got a friend to try and winch me out my seat  using an engine crane (to many pies) to prove the point, unless you run a 4 point harness with crutch strap done up so tight your balls have less room than a bunch of immigrants at Dover I fail to how any of them  rac or standard will do anything other than stopping you getting totally squashed.

In summary.... dont roll your car  

cheers

mark

[adhawkins]

Just out of interest, anyone know what the circumstances of the accident were?

Trying to read into it from the photos, it looks something like a major lock up at the rear end (although it's difficult to tell).

Anyone?

Andy

[Bazzer]

I dont understand the mindset that it is the maufacturers responsibility to make the choice for you, or to remove your choice. where do you draw the line.

But it is there responsibilty to represent there products correctly. Calling somthing a "Roll Bar" infers it offers roll over protection.

I you ordered a steering wheel from me and I sent you a cheese sandwich you would not be happy. The only difference in this analogy is it is obvious you have not got a steering wheel. It is not obvious to some people when they buy a standard roll bar they are not buying roll over protection.

I don't care if people drive around with

No Bar

Std Factory Bar

Coat hanger bar

FIA Bar

Full Cage

What I do care about is that people are properly informed so they can make a choice for themself.

I don't condone in any way the nanny way in which every one blames others for there actions.

I also agree that people should drive in a way that does not endager themselves or others on the queens highway, but accidents do happen and it might not be your fault !!!!

Bazzer

[Stevo]

If the possibility of rolling your sports car is so great and the consequenses so horrific; Why don't manufacturers of production open top sports cars (say an  MX5 or MR2 ) offer a RAC roll bar?

[Bazzer]

If the possibility of rolling your sports car is so great and the consequenses so horrific; Why don't manufacturers of production open top sports cars (say an  MX5 or MR2 ) offer a RAC roll bar?

Because current legislation does not require it of them.

I am not arguing that rolling your car is likely to happen. I am arguing that in the event of a roll over the std roll bar will give you next to no more protection than none at all.

Bazzer

[JasonR]

If the possibility of rolling your sports car is so great and the consequenses so horrific; Why don't manufacturers of production open top sports cars (say an  MX5 or MR2 ) offer a RAC roll bar?

I saw an MGF on the back of a low loader a while ago.  The MGF had obviously been rolled and the windscreen had just folded flat onto the car.  Very scary to look at!  Before that I always thought the windscreen surround (obviously not on a Westfield) offered some form of protection.

[Ian Podmore]

Totally agree Adrian, and that Caterham has obviously been involved in some big impacts, especially judging by the destroyed wheels.

We haven't noted one of the more important notes from the driver about him not tightening his 4 point harness properly (mainly the shoulder straps) because it was a very hot day....  He broke his sternum because his chest contacted the steering wheel. Ouch.

I always do my harnesses up as tight as I can when sprinting, but sometimes don't pull them quite as tightly for the road (but still tight as I'm not stupid).  How many others are just as guilty on this point?

[neilwillis]

Because they meet current european regulations, and so does the Westfield with, or without the roll over bar.

Nobody is suggesting that the manufacturers have any responsibility for what you choose to fit, or how you use your car once you get behind the wheel.

What I, and a few others are trying to say is for the cost, and trouble, fitting a strengthened roll bar is a logical and sensible move.   At the end of the day though, it's your head, and it's up to you whether you want to reduce the risks when involved in any kind of accident.

FWIW, having seen the head on crash between the Volvo and the Beemer on one of the car programmes not long ago, survivability in a crash at speed is definitely not high in any kind of car, but doing a little to reduce the risks is certainly worth considering.

[Bazzer]

Totally agree Adrian, and that Caterham has obviously been involved in some big impacts, especially judging by the destroyed wheels.

We haven't noted one of the more important notes from the driver about him not tightening his 4 point harness properly (mainly the shoulder straps) because it was a very hot day....  He broke his sternum because his chest contacted the steering wheel. Ouch.

I always do my harnesses up as tight as I can when sprinting, but sometimes don't pull them quite as tightly for the road (but still tight as I'm not stupid).  How many others are just as guilty on this point?

I must be a real p**f or worried I am a rubbish driver

Not only have I got a full cage, I always belt up as  tight as possible and I always use the crotch strap on the road.

Bazzer

[Ian Podmore]

worried I am a rubbish driver