DVLA - a victory for common sense

[NigelO]

Apparently, due to Covid sickness and working from home, DVLA staffing levels are very low, so I probably couldn't have picked a worse time to make a nuisance of myself. However, after almost three months, I've just been told my case has been approved.

 

Background - my Westie is a Sierra SDV, built in 2004 using a handful of bits from a 1988 XR4i donor. When it was registered, it was given the "E" registration from the donor and (crucially) it was also given the "date of first registration" from the donor too (not sure if this was by default or by choice of the builder). My understanding is that when the car was SVA'd and first registered, the owner could have assigned a 2004 (or earlier) plate and everything would have been fine, but becuase the donor registration was used, the 1988 date was committed and used on the V5.

 

This means that from DVLA's persective, my Westie is a 1988 car, which stopped me in my tracks when I wanted to assign an "N" reg personal plate.

 

DVLA's online registration assignment system clearly wouldn't work, so in early February, I wrote to them explaining that the date of first registration should be 2004, not 1988. After passing the case round various departments that don't seem to talk to each other, they have now accepted my argument and they even phoned me this morning to let me know!

 

So - if anyone is having similar problems, drop me a PM - I would be happy to provide a copy of the letter I used and I would be happy for you to use my case as a precedent.

[Quinten]

Do you now have to adhere to 2004 emissions regulations at MOT time?

[Kingster]

Aren’t emissions down to engine age?

[Steve20]

Interesting subject.

 

GOV.UK quotes, 

 

"All kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used before 1 August 1998 will be considered as first used before 1 August 1975 and therefore a visual test is applied"

 

For vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1975 a metered test will be applied, then it all comes down to age of the engine.

 

In my case my SDV has a date of first registration of 10/2006, however has an engine from 05/1993 so is subject to CO and HC test only.

 

 

 

[Richard (OldStager)]

22 minutes ago, Steve20 said:

Interesting subject.

 

GOV.UK quotes, 

 

"All kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used before 1 August 1998 will be considered as first used before 1 August 1975 and therefore a visual test is applied"

 

 

 

 

 

for me, it really is confusing when reading these rules. this is a slight thread shift so i apologise, but given the above info which is current i believe why cant i then use black and silver number plates...

my car was built and reg'd in 1994, the engine is from 1969 , so following that info my car is tested to the before 1975 rules, which also means i can run black and silver plates as the rules recently changed to put a stop on those at 1980.

i removed those plates the other month but kept them, anyone have any inside info on this issue please.

 

and sorry for the thread shift...

[NigelO]

2 hours ago, Chris King said:

Aren’t emissions down to engine age?

That's my understanding too. The engine is from a 1997 Mondeo, but that cannot possibly be known by the MOT tester - it's just a Zetec Silvertop - there's no concept of where it came from.

 

As far as I can tell, the "age" of the car will still be 1988 and it will be emission-tested as such (which I recall was nothing more than a probe up the exhaust to measure emissions, but then a pass anyway, as the emissions were irrelvant for a "non cat equipped car")

 

I believe that the 97 Mondeo was cat-equipped, so I'll be in trouble if the MOT station tests it as a cat equipped car - there's no way it will pass.

 

Hopefully, I haven't shot myself in the foot with my desire to use my "vanity plate". I guess I'll know more when the V5 comes back and more likely when I take it for its next MOT. I have access to two or three "understanding" garages, so I might have a chat with them first to see how their computer tells them to test the car.

[Steve20]

When mine went through the SVA in 2006 and then the local DVLA inspection and registration process they checked the proof of engine age letter from Ford and the engine number. Despite the car having a date of first registration of 2006 my emissions data is for the 1993 engine.

 

The other point worth mentioning is that although the V5 states October 2006 as date of first registration the car was given a J registration as that was the age of the original donor Sierra, therefore I am restricted to J or older plates.

 

Suits me as it is currently running on F1 WSC.

[Steve20]

Should also have said, from memory so I may be wrong the critical date for a cat was August 1993 so if the engine age gets picked up correctly you may have a problem.

 

My current challenge with DVLA is the fact that my July 2019 registered BMW is showing up as having an MOT that has expired!

 

Interesting as it doesn’t need one till July 2022 🤔

 

Then of course my licence got cloned but that’s a story for another day.

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

3 hours ago, NigelO said:

That's my understanding too. The engine is from a 1997 Mondeo, but that cannot possibly be known by the MOT tester - it's just a Zetec Silvertop - there's no concept of where it came from.

 

As far as I can tell, the "age" of the car will still be 1988 and it will be emission-tested as such (which I recall was nothing more than a probe up the exhaust to measure emissions, but then a pass anyway, as the emissions were irrelvant for a "non cat equipped car")

 

I believe that the 97 Mondeo was cat-equipped, so I'll be in trouble if the MOT station tests it as a cat equipped car - there's no way it will pass.

 

Hopefully, I haven't shot myself in the foot with my desire to use my "vanity plate". I guess I'll know more when the V5 comes back and more likely when I take it for its next MOT. I have access to two or three "understanding" garages, so I might have a chat with them first to see how their computer tells them to test the car.

 

The age of the engine fitted at the time of IVA test is the critical factor for emissions. It is obvious that a Zetec engine is from the 1990's and therefore should probably have a catalyst test, though this is not always the case.

 

If you haven't already seen it try this guide 

It is worth knowing that when it comes to kit car emissions the MOT tester needs to interpret the manual to find the correct test to carry out, then operate the EGA to that specification.

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

4 hours ago, OldStager said:

for me, it really is confusing when reading these rules. this is a slight thread shift so i apologise, but given the above info which is current i believe why cant i then use black and silver number plates...

my car was built and reg'd in 1994, the engine is from 1969 , so following that info my car is tested to the before 1975 rules, which also means i can run black and silver plates as the rules recently changed to put a stop on those at 1980.

i removed those plates the other month but kept them, anyone have any inside info on this issue please.

 

and sorry for the thread shift...

 

The 1975 rule only applies to emissions!

 

All other criteria are tested on the date of registration, in your case 1994 so white and yellow reflective plates are required to pass an MOT and to remain legal.

[Richard (OldStager)]

6 minutes ago, Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO said:

 

The 1975 rule only applies to emissions!

 

All other criteria are tested on the date of registration, in your case 1994 so white and yellow reflective plates are required to pass an MOT and to remain legal.

yeah, i just havent seen that written anywhere, the car had black and silver plates for 6 years and never failed , but since the january rule change i got another yellow plate and a white one for the front, i hate the look of them, but accept the rules. i would like some techincal reason in terms of readability for modern tech systems though, which i havent found either.

[Martyn Vann - Warwickshire AO]

9 hours ago, OldStager said:

yeah, i just havent seen that written anywhere, the car had black and silver plates for 6 years and never failed , but since the january rule change i got another yellow plate and a white one for the front, i hate the look of them, but accept the rules. i would like some techincal reason in terms of readability for modern tech systems though, which i havent found either.

 

Try this link to bsau145d and the new bsau145e standards:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjm17_doKDwAhVsQEEAHVcLCasQFjAAegQIBBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bnma.org%2Fadvice-centre%2Fkey-pieces-of-legislation%2Fbritish-standard-bs-au-145d%2F&usg=AOvVaw1FsJ3ppSPgXs40HuaedA_Z

 

Try this guidance leaflet from DVLA:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/0-identification-of-the-vehicle

 

Try this for the MOT regulations:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/0-identification-of-the-vehicle

 

Do remember that the fact that a vehicle has passed an MOT, does not mean that the vehicle complies with ALL of the Construction and Use Regulations for use on the road as there are difference in the two sets of rules. Also factor in that some MOT testers do not apply the rules correctly, sometimes to the presenters benefit and sometimes not! In your case the black and silver number plates should always have failed an MOT, lucky you!

 

[Richard (OldStager)]

thank you martyn, i had seen those pages some years ago, and the only modification was the jan 2021 change, to make them illegal on post 1980's cars.

i also find it disturbing that not all mot stations apply the rules as they should, had i done this when i was working i could have killed somebody, by ignoring or shortcutting an important step.

 

i still cant find a report about how the old plates are read by things like anpr, as if they cant be read correctly then the bank robbers out there need a classic car these days... 😁

[CosKev]

On 27/04/2021 at 11:49, NigelO said:

This means that from DVLA's persective, my Westie is a 1988 car,

 

Shot yourself in the foot regarding free VED!😁

 

Would have been tax free in 2028,now it's not until 2034!🤪

[NigelO]

4 hours ago, CosKev said:

 

Shot yourself in the foot regarding free VED!😁

 

Would have been tax free in 2028,now it's not until 2034!🤪

 

LOL - I hit my 60th birthday this year - getting into the Westie is easy with the assistance of gravity, but getting out is already a bit of a struggle. I can't see me still using it by the end of this decade....

 

Besides - I've added 16 years, not 6, so surely it would be 2044 for free VED - I'll be doing well if I'm still walking by then...