2018 Regs and Explainations

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, John said:

I get your point with A and B TTs if they have been calculated from C and D.  I set most of the C times on ZZRs and know how difficult it was to do over quite a few seasons of car evolution

You make a good point there John, but I do sense the undercurrent

 

The way I see it is that nobody fits 1C tyres to a truly roadgoing car. Therefore you HAVE to 'develop' a car for Class C/D. So to base Class A and B TTs on cars that have been specifically developed for a certain class could well be offputting to newbies? To have entered a competitive driving event, you MUST have a competitive spirit. If you look at the other cars around you and the TTs you are up against, and see immediately that you can't be competitive (without lobbing thousands of £££ at the car), what's the point in entering?

I believe that classes Class A and B (the BOTTOM classes!) should be full of pretty standard, actual roadgoing cars, and these cars / drivers should have a sniff of being half competitive in some sort of overall trophy. If you (a general term, not anyone specific!) don't want the cars in these classes to have a chance at the overall championship (for whatever reason - including 'because they haven't served the time / effort to develop their car sufficiently') then just exclude them from the overall series, simple.

In fact, here's a suggestion... Why not make the Sprint Award for Classes A and B only? It effectively makes a 'cheap' championship by giving newbies / people with a lower budget (for both car upgrades and volume of events) a 'proper' overall championship to aim for. Cheaper cars. Fewer rounds. TTs would be largely irrelevant because drivers are only competing against their own class rather than for the overall championship, so no headaches in calculating them. Thoughts?

[Onliest Smeg David]

50 minutes ago, John said:

Why do you not feel that the novice championship (and now mini sprint series) is enough as it pits them against people in the same boat?

When you look at entries which meet qualifying criteria for awards = 8 plus rounds for Nov Championship, 5 or 6 rounds for Sprint Challenge:

2014 - Nov Champ 9 - Sprint 6

2015 - Nov Champ 7 - Sprint 1

2016 - Nov Champ 5 - Sprint 2

2017 - Nov Champ 3 - Sprint 0

the prospect for future doesn't look too positive unless something changes to attract newbies!

17 minutes ago, woodman said:

I think that most novices will be coming from a trackday background these days and have cars that are already modified in some way 

Possibly, but I think the majority of Novices I've known started on road? But why many trackdayers don't compete in the Speed Series is another valid question.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

5 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Why not make the Sprint Award for Classes A and B only? It effectively makes a 'cheap' championship by giving newbies / people with a lower budget a 'proper' overall championship to aim for. Cheaper cars. Less rounds. TTs for all categories are largely irrelevant because drivers are only competing against their own class rather than for the overall championship. Thoughts?

I hear your points but there are already class awards for A and B. Isnt this the same thing?

[Matthew Haynes]

Now that we have all calmed down a little bit, I would like to summarise the points that have arisen into a concise list, which I hope you will all agree with.

1.       It would be a good idea to have separate awards for Experts and Novices in the Sprint Challenge.
           a.       Removing the experts seems to cause ill feeling, and no points have been raised to support removing experts in this thread.

2.       The target time differential (where actual times are unavailable) between Classes A&B compared to Classes D&E, should be 4% rather than 2%.

          a.       This is supported by analysis of the 2017 times for experts, as well as estimates from several experienced competitors.

3.       Novice target times (and classes), would in ideal circumstances be available, and would be motivating for novices.

          a.       However for practical reasons this may require too much effort to implement.

          b.      Novice targets have been successfully produced in previous years.

4.       “True” Road going classes, and their definition remains unresolved.

          a.       A separate thread should be started for this debate, as it is not part of changes to the 2018 Regs, or the explanation of the changes.

          b.      All of the 36 MSA regulated events scheduled in the Speed Series will use the road going definition from the Blue Book.

          c.      Even if the SSOT come up with a new definition, at best it will only apply to the two events organised by WSCC.

I believe that this summary is a reasonable overview, which may help the SSOT from having to go through the entire thread!

Minima Class and Race.xlsx

[AdamR]

9 minutes ago, John said:

I hear your points but there are already class awards for A and B. Isnt this the same thing?

Hmm. Hadn't considered that I would say yes and no. Off the top of my head...

Yes - It is an overall championship for Classes A and B.

No - You don't have the option to win by default just by doing more rounds than other people, like what happens now. It separates those with the time / budget / wish to develop their cars for a specific class away from those who just want to turn up and have a bash. There are quite a few people I know who can't commit to a full 10 round series, maybe a smaller more competitive series would entice them in?

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

2 minutes ago, AdamR said:

No - You don't have the option to win by default just by doing more rounds than other people, like what happens now. It separates those with the time / budget / wish to develop their cars for a specific class away fro those who just want to turn up and have a bash. There are quite a few people I know who can't commit to a full 10 round series, maybe a smaller more competitive series would entice them in?

So by the fact that they haven't competed previously (you use the words entice in) not make them a novice and therefore qualify for the mini sprint series?

[Terry Everall]

Could I remind everybody that the all the classes, championships etc do not have a minimum number of rounds. We score either from the best 10 or 8 results ( if you only do 4 events thats ok as we use those points. )The mini sprint is for people who do 6 or less events.

[AdamR]

Yes, you're right John. I hadn't considered that Not saying I'm right, just throwing ideas about to try and get more people involved! If they are crap ideas then so be it!

Terry - my point is that someone who has a competitive spirit wants to enter a competitive event with the feeling that they might win something!

If Joe is a crap driver and gets 75.1 points at 7 rounds, but Bob is a demon behind the wheel but can only afford to do 5 rounds, gets 101 at all of those, Joe still wins the overall.

[Terry Everall]

Adam 

Very unlikely that anyone would score as low as 75.1 points at any event and I cant remember that ever happening unless they had car or engine problems

[woodman]

Adam ,Just so I can understand your class A+ B definition-

I just use the below as an example

Would you have let Maurici , having bought your old car , but being a novice , to use it in your proposed A+B or would he be forced to run in a higher class even thought he was a genuine novice

I only ask because I believe it will be very difficult to define this class

[AdamR]

10 minutes ago, terry everall said:

Adam 

Very unlikely that anyone would score as low as 75.1 points at any event and I cant remember that ever happening unless they had car or engine problems

Fair shout Terry! My numbers were obviously silly, but just making the point.

10 minutes ago, woodman said:

Adam ,Just so I can understand your class A+ B definition-

I just use the below as an example

Would you have let Maurici , having bought your old car , but being a novice , to use it in your proposed A+B or would he be forced to run in a higher class even thought he was a genuine novice

I only ask because I believe it will be very difficult to define this class

That is a really tough one. I can't answer that. The novice categorisation is really hard to define, because IMO someone who has done 3 years of regular trackdays is going to be a quicker driver than someone who has done 10 years of sprinting, yet they will still be classed as a novice under the current rules. Honesty would be great but how often does that work in motorsport? If it were up to me, Maurici couldn't drive as a novice in B, that just not 'fair' (and I am sure he would agree).

[Onliest Smeg David]

38 minutes ago, AdamR said:

The way I see it is that nobody fits 1C tyres to a truly roadgoing car. Therefore you HAVE to 'develop' a car for Class C/D.

And Novice E/F, which is clearly putting at least 1 novice (Jez / Rogers79) off joining in with the speed series.

So keep Expert as is - but sometime I expect 1C tyres may eventually have to be phased out. Include Sprint Challenge as was.

Novice - Remove the 1C tyre element. Reduce commitment for Novice Sprint Challenge to 4 from 5 rounds.

For first year Novices who cannot commit to minimum of 4 rounds an award for the best average score. Possibly - have to or highly encouraged to do Blyton two rounds.

Possibly a 'Lardy One'  Award for first year Novices in a more daily driver orientated Westfield punching above their weight (or under their weight ? ) at the judgement of the organisers, may be based on opinions rather than fact but may be a motivator to encourage participation. [Edit] defining a 'Lardy One' Class, although maybe an ideal to encourage more roadgoing starters, would as has pointed out be near impossible to regulate for and as hard to police

Edited December 15, 2017 by Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

1 minute ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

And Novice E/F, which is clearly putting at least 1 novice (Jez / Rogers79) off joining in with the speed series.

So keep Expert as is - but sometime I expect 1C tyres may eventually have to be phased out. Include Sprint Challenge as was.

Novice - Remove the 1C tyre element. Reduce commitment for Novice Sprint Challenge to 4 from 5 rounds.

For first year Novices who cannot commit to minimum of 4 rounds an award for the best average score. Possibly - have to or highly encouraged to do Blyton two rounds.

Possibly a 'Lardy One'  Award for first year Novices in a more daily driver orientated Westfield punching above their weight (or under their weight ? ) at the judgement of the organisers, may be based on opinions rather than fact but may be a motivator to encourage participation.

There has been 1C tyres in the blue book for many years including way before ZZR. They are for other purposes as well. If you include list 1A, B and C tyres in the novice championship, surely it widens the net of potential newbies as they will surely have tyres from at least one of the lists

With regards your own car, you could always develop it!

[Andrew]

37 minutes ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

Possibly, but I think the majority of Novices I've known started on road? But why many trackdayers don't compete in the Speed Series is another valid question.

I think I can comment.. I do see a pattern of folks doing a couple of trackdays, then deciding to go sprinting. For the folks that stick to trackdays, the natural progression is to circuit racing. Of the group I do (or did) regular track days with, at least six have gone into racing. It's getting lonely on track.. 

For me it's all about seat time. I just cant justify three or four hours travelling time for five minutes of track time.

[maurici]

25 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Fair shout Terry! My numbers were obviously silly, but just making the point.

That is a really tough one. I can't answer that. The novice categorisation is really hard to define, because IMO someone who has done 3 years of regular trackdays is going to be a quicker driver than someone who has done 10 years of sprinting, yet they will still be classed as a novice under the current rules. Honesty would be great but how often does that work in motorsport? If it were up to me, Maurici couldn't drive as a novice in B, that just not 'fair' (and I am sure he would agree).

I´m still a novice!! only 15 events!! So still 10 to go.

If I would have known how was the average level and what I and my car were capable off, I wouldn´t have entered as a novice in my first year, but I was new in the country, I was new in sprinting, car was new... never driven before in wet... so seemed sensible not to be too ambitious.

I started in the series last year, 33Yo. My only experience in competition was when 18, 19 yo doing 3 or 4 evens with a R5 turbo in rallyes. I crashed in most of them. I did trackdays since then... and since 27 yo really really commited at leas visiting the track 7 or 8 times a year.

After my second event I feelt capable of being in experts, and compete with the few guys in class B and with some class D... Same applyes to Barny same year as me... where he wast the fastest westfiedl (by 4 seconds and reruns in anglesey, but still, faster than everyone else and second overall) in anglesey and in Loton park wich was impressive. Rules did qualify us as novices. Our skills maybe not (now I´m being cocky, sorry) but that is why stepped up this year despite being a novice by rules, I didn´t felt I should be there, and is the reason why i would support an "access championship" based in lesser rounds and quite limited modifications in cars, rather than the propper novice one.