2018 Regs and Explainations

[Matthew Haynes]

I have copied times from the WSCC website, and tabulated them to;

Lowest times in seconds, by Class, and Event, for Experts in 2017.

Classes A2 and C are compared showing the time difference in % (A2/C).

Classes B2 and D are compared showing the difference in % (B2/D).

The data are incomplete.

However; If we assume the fastest expert drivers are of equal ability, and that track conditions are constant throughout each event:

The results show that Class A2 is slower by 3% than Class C, and Class B2, is 5% slower than Class D.

My suggestion is that, where an actual time is not available, the TT difference between road going Classes A & B, and Classes C & D, should be 4%, rather than 2%.

As a novice competitor in Class B, it does seem that the combination of removing Novice TTs, and the less than generous allowance of 2% for road going tyres, especially given that 75% of Class B competitors were novices in 2017, is a little discouraging, despite the best of intentions.

 

	WSCC Fastest Times 2017
Race	A2	B2	C	D		A2/C	B2/D
1	86.30		81.61	76.45		105.75%
2				60.29
3				101.90
4				131.56
5
6		49.02
7				35.68
8				44.27
9				43.12
10	129.32			120.59
11	102.07			98.33
12	61.41			50.98
13	35.55		34.47			103.13%
14	35.40		34.32			103.15%
15			64.44
16			101.01	99.16
17			99.58	99.03
18	48.12	49.64		49.23			100.83%
19			121.27	120.02
20			136.43	131.60
21
22	35.88		33.10			108.40%
23			52.07
24			34.07
25	69.23	68.68	71.20	68.57		97.23%	100.16%
26	75.37	89.55	77.74	73.11		96.95%	122.49%
27	83.07		81.44	80.82		102.00%
28			140.78	131.58
29	62.44		58.88	56.25		106.05%
30	61.34		58.25	56.05		105.30%
31	69.49			63.62
32	72.86			63.21
33				71.12
34			64.26	64.30
35	61.37	58.60		57.64			101.67%
36	97.03	96.47		95.18			101.36%
Simple Average						103%	105%
Count	17	6	18	27		9	5

[Marto303]

Terry, that’s what we all want, with huge interest in the 21st Birthday celebrations at Shelsley we need to get this sorted and not waste a golden opportunity to draw in a good few new competitors ! 

[Onliest Smeg David]

26 minutes ago, terry everall said:

I cant think of any other clubs that offers such a large number of awards and trophies for Novices. All the SSOT want there to be more drivers taking part in more events and for the club to continue to be the envy of others and the best crowd in the paddock.  

Absolutely the bestest series and competitors  

Probably too many awards.... Class win for 1 or 2 events  - I definitely don't feel I earnt mine this year. Perhaps a minimum of 4 rounds to qualify for awards would be apropriate.

With up to 5 for Novice Sprint Challenge, & up to 6 for Expert Sprint Challenge.

[Terry Everall]

There is no expert sprint challenge as its just for novices

[maurici]

15 minutes ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

Absolutely the bestest series and competitors  

Probably too many awards.... Class win for 1 or 2 events  - I definitely don't feel I earnt mine this year. Perhaps a minimum of 4 rounds to qualify for awards would be apropriate.

With up to 5 for Novice Sprint Challenge, & up to 6 for Expert Sprint Challenge.

That is up to personal opinion.

Obviusly mines this year, won against myself... isn´t in the shelf, as is not actually a won trophy, is a participation one. (I´m speaking about the class win, the turf trofy took me great effort)...

 

BUT, that is the actual spirit of an amateur club championship. That means that Everyone with a very little commitment, can walk home with a bit of a reward, and I don´t think that is bad despite I have my own opinion...

[maurici]

3 minutes ago, terry everall said:

There is no expert sprint challenge as its just for novices

That is a massive mistake in my opinion. It was a VERY nice oportunity for people with less time or money to commit... and has nothing to do with the experience...

But I´ve been the only one moaning about it, so I must be wrong.

[Paul Morcom]

1 hour ago, BCF said:

I do agree with Martin and some of the other comments that having a separate Novice championship is a massive draw to the club, I've discussed this at different events with different competitors (lotus club members, mini club members and some FF members) and they're all blown away that we offered this and think it's a great way of getting people in. It certainly lured me in! I'd like to see that come back.

We do still have a Novice championship and Novice awards in all the classes. This has not changed from previous years - the only difference is the use of one set of targets.  I am sure Tigger will be working out the best way to display the results from the various view points.

[B.RAD]

37 minutes ago, maurici said:

That is a massive mistake in my opinion. It was a VERY nice oportunity for people with less time or money to commit... and has nothing to do with the experience...

But I´ve been the only one moaning about it, so I must be wrong.

Not the only one Maurici, I was planning on entering for the Sprint challenge in 2018 as I won't be able to do enough events for anything else (whether that was in my car or a DD had yet to be decided). I now won't be entering at all. 

[maurici]

Just now, BCF said:

Not the only one Maurici, I was planning on entering for the Sprint challenge in 2018 as I won't be able to do enough events for anything else (whether that was in my car or a DD had yet to be decided). I now won't be entering at all. 

3 of us so.

[AdamR]

44 minutes ago, maurici said:

But I´ve been the only one moaning about it, so I must be wrong.

I've already done too much moaning it seems, so keeping quiet about it I think the Sprint Challenge is a good trophy, as has been said some people can't commit time or budget to a full season. It was one of the main reasons for me competing this season just gone (not the trophy itself, the fact that you could 'compete' without having to throw barrowloads of cash at it), so with it gone I'm not sure about 2018.

 

Thanks for running the numbers Matthew! If the actual data comes out as 3% and 5% slower, why not use that?

Speaking of actual data, here's an example - check Dave Cleaver's time for the last round of the season. That was in my A2 car with 1B tyres (but he's listed in H cos that's where he entered). We all know what his scores were in his class in his car (and in fact would have been around 103 average for the season had there not been a points cap), yet that day would have yielded at 97.3. My average points for the rest of the season was well over 100, and that event scored 96.96. I beat him on Saturday by a very similar margin to what he beat me by on Sunday, and I hope I can say without sounding cocky that neither of us are slow. There was historical Class B data from the year before.

Anyone coming into the series with even a sniff of competitive spirit is going to be put off by such unrealistic targets. If Matthew can deduce there is a 3% and 5% difference between A/C and B/D so quickly I can't understand why it's not been looked at before.

I guess it sounds like I am trying to make Class A / B easier because that's where my car sits, but I have no interest in doing that for personal gain. Quite a few of you chaps know what tyres I chose to run at selected events last year I would much rather see a healthier paddock, and a load of Class A and B cars on 1B tyres to have a crack against on my ditchfinders

[maurici]

 

1 hour ago, AdamR said:

I hope I can say without sounding cocky that neither of us are slow. There was historical Class B data from the year before.

 

Can I say I´m not slow either when I keep it in the black stuff? without sounding cocky??? Please... please...

Yes, there was a class record from last year... but was mine. A f***ing amazing lap that I can say no-one will ever do with my car. I nearly got killed in church... BUt hey... lets drop it 2 seconds.

I have to edit this. Record wasn´t mine... Adam went a tenth faster. So... maybe my lap wasn´t that amazing after all...  

[Rogers79]

Hope this comes across the way it’s meant which is an observation not criticism. This year Was my first year competing and did loton And Harewood in class E. I thoroughly enjoyed it, everyone was welcoming, friendly and offered tips from set up, lines, tyres etc which is testimony to all who run and participate.  With this in mind I decided to tweak my car and look to do a full season 2018 with a goal of novice championship. Maybe bold statement but need something to aim for. I then started to read the regs in more detail and the target times in class E are set on 1c tyres which I understand is similar in other classes. Yes I could run 1C tyres but then I’m only eligible in class E to which I was the only Car which competed this year and it means I couldn’t compete in the event organisers Road going classes as they don’t allow 1c tyres meaning I’d have next to no chance of winning a pot or a championship which I think we all like to EARN a pot. I’m now looking at other championships to have a go in and just registering in wscc to support it. The plan is to go to the autosport to learn more as I am a novice and want to fully understand where I am with the Car I have. I understand there is history to target times but I get the impression people are looking to the future  

Like I said not out to criticise just trying to give a novice interpretation of how I see things. Jez 

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

Agreed with many of the points and we will be actioning/debating some where we can...

Other classes have had time to stabilise A and b have not. We haven't researched the data... as I said this will be done, but please bear with us as.

The data hasn't been recorded in this format and I understand personal driver data exists so we might ask for some times etc;  but we need to consider facts like are historical 1c tyre times allowed in A/B or does it reset the figures. (and that's a whole other debate, which we will have offline)

We want chat and comment,  otherwise I would have posted this under a locked thread....

The team are going to have a chat about the comments in this thread as it your club, your competition, we want the series to survive in hardened times with external factors like rule changes, austerity & falling numbers into the sport... we are only the caretakers of the SS.

I heard Tim Minchin say opinions are like bums, everyone's got one; but unlike bums you should review yours often...

We can not change the regulations mid-season and a lot of work has got us to this point, We also recognise the fact we should stop and stabilise; for instance behind the scenes we had a 18month review of scoring systems and the sub team created a report on different systems and it was decided that this was the best for a National club, with different cars with an average car turn out.

Now that might not please everyone but we have had to make some decisions on your behalf.

In the nicest way I'll keep reading the posts and making notes for our feedback meeting on this, but not every post will get a reply.

cheers

John Williams

Competition Secretary

 

 

 

 

[woodman]

In my experience ( 2001 - on) other championships are not particularly Westy friendly ( in a class/points way)

Most dont seperate novices, .

Some need at least 5 cars in a class to score decent points ( eg HSA)

We have a great Championship that accomodates virtually every type of Westy.

The SSOT are constantly working on ways to improve it for all

[Onliest Smeg David]

1 hour ago, John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary said:

We can not change the regulations mid-season and a lot of work has got us to this point, We also recognise the fact we should stop and stabilise; for instance behind the scenes we had a 18month review of scoring systems and the sub team created a report on different systems and it was decided that this was the best for a National club, with different cars with an average car turn out.

I absolutely agree with keeping the target time system for the SS situation. I cannot see anything else working better without much larger entries at all events. Just tuning required!