2016 Speed Series Regulations - Your input please.

[B.RAD]

I see your point Adrian. Would the same apply if it were the average of the top three times for that event going back as far as current 1b tyres were allowed? So rather than an average of just last year, it would be an average of the three fastest ever times in that class, on those tyres?

That way it would be irrelevant how many competitors there are in each class as there will still be significant enough number of times set to create a fair average.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

OK – having given this some serious thought now, and following on from my email to the MSA regarding tyre issues which identifies being able to use any tyre from list 1A, 1B or 1C to avoid cost implications and encourage newcomers and novices to our sport, my attention turned to why are novices only in classes A and B have separate target times for the novice championship? I think that  novice target times should exist in the novice championship for any Westfield class in the series, A-H and would encourage any newcomer with a Westfield to participate in the SS regardless of specification as they could score in the novice championship as a novice until they had done say 10 events. Then they become an expert for that class.

 

Further to this I think that as you develop your car and change UP the classes over time i.e. A > C > E > G (or B>D>F>H) then you should be given a years grace as a novice again as you move into a new class for a season. After a seasons grace you become an expert again until you move on a class again. As an example, a class A guy does 1 year and decides to fit a dog box and therefore he moves to class C but for 1 year he remains a novice. If he then does another year in class C he becomes expert. If he then changes to sequential for year 4 he becomes novice again for a year etc. I think 10 events is sufficient to lose novice status as that represents a full season in terms of rounds towards the championship. The difference between A/B>C/D>E/F>G/H  is syncro gearbox > dog box > sequential gearbox > slicks for both engine sizes upto 1800cc and over 1800cc. This seems fine to me although other people are suggesting changing the cc to 1700 which is in line with event classes

 

Adding to encouraging newcomers and pleasing existing competitors, why not allow tyres from 1A, 1B or 1C from any of the road classes A-F? If a novice wants to participate but happens to have unsuitable tyres on their car, they would think twice about starting out as they would be required to pay out on a new set of suitable tyres just to start off in order to be eligible. If existing competitors happen to have list 1C tyres, then so be it – let them run. The only proviso to this is that cars running 1C tyres would need to run in mod prod at events – no big deal really except requiring a HANS. A newcomer would need to buy a helmet anyway so recommend that they get one with HANS posts to aid this if there car had 1C tyres. The choice is either change tyres from 1C to 1B (or 1A) to run in road classes at events at a cost or to buy a HANS an run in mod prod to use existing tyres. Both options require a cost of some sort but there is then a choice as to what to do at least.

 

So in short, 2 championships – novice and expert which can be scored from any class and allow any 1A, 1B and 1C tyres in classes A-F which gives a place for exisiting 1C tyred cars to run and opens the scope for newcomers to join in. This also allows existing target times to remain for classes A-F

 

John

[Terry Everall]

John

Novices can and do ( see results) score in any class already

The use of 1A & 1B rather than 1C needs careful thought as it affects 2016 true Road Going classes as well as our own classes A to F.If you let someone run 1C against 1B in class D for example thats unfair and yet 1B will be the tyres to buy for the future if you need a new set

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

John

Novices can and do ( see results) score in any class already

The use of 1A & 1B rather than 1C needs careful thought as it affects 2016 true Road Going classes as well as our own classes A to F.If you let someone run 1C against 1B in class D for example thats unfair and yet 1B will be the tyres to buy for the future if you need a new set

 

So why do classes A and B have novice next to them but no others do? David Birch was a novice this year but he couldn't score for the novice championship as far as I am aware because he was in class F

 

Whether its fair to run 1C against 1B tyres is irrelevant. Its the choice of the individual as to what they run. If 1Cs are faster then why wouldn't someone want them other than because of cost? - the option is still there just as it is now to run 1A or 1B. 1C tyres will be available to buy for quite a few years yet and it eliminates the prospect that TTs will need to be rejigged going forward due to the tyre rule changes.

[Terry Everall]

John

Have a look at the Novice championship where David Birch does score

12 people scored in that championship and several were not in A or B

Your debate about 1A,1B and 1C tyres is already on the list for debate thanks

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Sorry Terry. It looks like I have been misinformed about novices. I was told that they could only come from classes A or B and it loos like I wrongly believed this as it says Novice next to the class descriptions which in theory now doesn't need to be there if what you say is true.

[XTR2Turbo]

John I do score for novice but because I am not in A or B I don't have the 2% reduction in target times. 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

John I do score for novice but because I am not in A or B I don't have the 2% reduction in target times. 

 

There you go. I knew there was something about novices and classes other than A and B. Surely a novice should be able to come from any class. Afterall, classes A/B are syncro gearbox, C/D dog box, E/F sequential gearbox so who is to say what spec of car a novice might happen to have? They could even be on slicks. My point is that they should all have equal footing to score the same in the novice championsip

[XTR2Turbo]

The more I think about it, the concept of novice classes has largely become redundant with the use of target times.

 

I wonder if a better approach would be:

 

Classes reflect the spec of cars only.

Novices just have an offset target time and can be in any class.

 

If more than 3 novice you could have a novice and expert class winner in each class

 

WRT to classes for next year I would consider

 

A/B 1a / 1b tyres only and some of Barry's ideas on limits to spec - dampers / electronic aids / weight saving etc - can be novice or expert

C/D as above but allow 1C tyres and slightly loser car spec

E/F 1C and as today

G/H as today

 

The above allows everyone a place whether they are expert or novice and whether they buy hans or new tyres or stick with what they have and whether they want to compete on the day or not.

 

2017 it may be with give notice that C/D and even E/F are also limited to 1B but we further differentiate on car spec to give a good tiering of classes

 

Perhaps if the road going tyre limitation in future push more people into slicks and ultimately E/F don't make sense on 1a / 1b tyres , in 2017  we could have 4 road going classes and 4 non road going.  Perhaps G/H could be bike engine only and I / J car engine to overcome some of the earlier comments

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

 

 

The "ModProd" anecdote. ModSpecProd (mod-prod-kits) does not normally attract many competitors on the day and frequently gets lumped together with ModProd. The class divisions are normally <1400, 1400-2000, and >2000cc. Slicks are allowed. A few years ago, I put a 1398cc 'Busa into the Striker and entered it for a season in ModSpecProd<1400. It was a most unsatisfactory experience with regard to good sport. I was invariably in a combined class with ModProd, and the cars involved were producing incredibly varied times (differences were several seconds, rather than the tenths we frequently see in road-going). Worse still, the Striker walked every event (typically by over ten seconds on faster circuits like Brands and Lydden) which ruined the championship season for the other class competitors, and was no fun at all. Other competitors' resentment resulted in BECs being excluded from ModProd by the clubs with whom the Striker had been entered for the following season. I was very glad to return to road-going.

 

But our suggested scenario means they would be running 1C tyres against slicks so is unlikely to be the case

[B.RAD]

Personally I'd like to keep the novice classes as it gives something to aim for in terms of class placement, but I agree that the novice target time element should be applied to all novices, regardless of class.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Personally I'd like to keep the novice classes as it gives something to aim for in terms of class placement, but I agree that the novice target time element should be applied to all novices, regardless of class.

 

There would be novice classes for all classes in my suggestion further up. My point is that at the moment a novice is limited to having a class A or class B car to be effective in the novice championship as those are the only 2 classes with different target times to other classes in the novice championship. There would  be in effect 2 championships - a novice and expert which includes all classes A-H with different target times for each class between the 2 championships and not just A and B classes.

 

Then as you move up the classes, after having lost your novice status (by having done 10 events / 1 season in that class), you become a novice again for the class that then join as you will have presumably changed the spec of your car in some way (e.g gearbox type or tyres) so you are not and be against expert target times for that class that you have no experience of in your first season in that class. You lose your novice status in a class by doing 10 or more events / 1 season  in a particular class and then become expert.

 

Of course you can stay in the same class subject to car spec but simply lose your novice status after your first 10 events / 1 season and therefore are against expert target times in the class from there on

 

As an extreme example, you have been in class B as a novice this year. Next year I would expect you to be an expert in class B. However, if you said I've had enough of road tyres due to the new tyre regs and want to run slicks, that would put you in class H due to your engine size. My suggestion has you in class H as a novice again as you would be in your first season in a class higher up the car specs and therefore be against novice target time for class H

[davidgh]

But our suggested scenario means they would be running 1C tyres against slicks so is unlikely to be the case

 

Not my experience, John  --  but, admittedly, I limited myself by not wanting to move away from 7" wheels all round.

In my case, when the slicks wore out I replaced them with ZZRs and (oddly) went no slower.

 

Remember, my experience was with the <1400cc class. As Phelpsa points out, life might be very different in the larger classes.

 

 

 

Or maybe not  --  edited to give example. TWMC Centenary Sprint 10th September 2011 at Brands Hatch

One Competitor in Class B9 (Chris)  --  on ZZRs  --  best time 87.27s

4 competitors in B10  --  on slicks  -- with best times: 98.85s, 100.16s, 105.36s and 109.58s

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Not my experience, John  --  but, admittedly, I limited myself by not wanting to move away from 7" wheels all round.

In my case, when the slicks wore out I replaced them with ZZRs and (oddly) went no slower.

 

Remember, my experience was with the <1400cc class. As Phelpsa points out, life might be very different in the larger classes.

 

 

 

Or maybe not  --  edited to give example. TWMC Centenary Sprint 10th September 2011 at Brands Hatch

One Competitor in Class B9 (Chris)  --  on ZZRs  --  best time 87.27s

4 competitors in B10  --  on slicks  -- with best times: 98.85s, 100.16s, 105.36s and 109.58s

 

Bizare!. My point was about upsetting other mod prod drivers by 'walking' the class by 10 seconds as you put it.  I would expect slick cars to walk over 1C tyred cars. What sort of cars did you compete against? Artic trucks? :-)

[davidgh]

Bizare!. My point was about upsetting other mod prod drivers by 'walking' the class by 10 seconds as you put it.  I would expect slick cars to walk over 1C tyred cars. What sort of cars did you compete against? Artic trucks? :-)

 

B10:

Renault Spider Cup

VW Golf GTi

Renault Clio 182

BMW 316

 

There were also two cars in B11

BMW E36 M3

Vauxhall Viva GT

The former was the faster with a time of 95.27s!

 

And, to complete the picture, Pete Goulding won Class A8 with a time of 88.08s, and yours truly won A7 in 90.33s.

 

 

Edited again after looking at the same event in 2012 (also attended by a certain modest and handsome genius).

The best in B10 (Tony Hart  --  Renault GT T) was much closer to Chris that time (two seconds), but was still beaten by A7 (me) and easily by A8 (ACW). Nobody apart from Tony in either B10 or B11 was remotely close (all over 10 seconds slower than ACW, all but Tony and one other were more than 15s behind..