MSA TYRE REGS to CHANGE

[XTR2Turbo]

In my opinion, it is best to offer an alternative rather than just complain.

 

The text I see below is the best I can find on the subject.

 

Is it the case that tyres currently classed as 1b will fail the noise test and not be made after Nov 2016 or is it the case they will fail rolling resistance and not be made after the Nov 2018 date?

 

The answer to this is surely critical as to how we respond.

 

If it is the latter date then the recommendation should be that the MSA hold fire on the rule changes until manufacturers have released details of their new tyres.

If it is the former then I assume MSA have no choice but to ban the current 1b tyres for 2017 (can you have a road legal class running on tyres you can no longer legally buy) but perhaps needs to have fast track rules for adding new tyres to 1b again as they become available.

 

Either way, are we saying that the MSA should keep a 1a and 1b distinction, even though the tyres included in those lists may be somewhat different to the list today as manufacturers respond to the changing regulations?  Our assumption is that manufacturers will still have performance road legal tyres and these should be 1b.  Whether the technology allows them to be as grippy as today's 1b tyres - who knows?

 

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Hi All,

There appears to be lot of miss-information being spread about trackday tyres becoming illegal.

There are two regulations being introduced by the EU:

Regulation EC No 1222/2009
• Labeling of key information on tyre performance

Regulation EC No 661/2009
• Type approval, General Safety of Motor Vehicles

The first is best described as white goods labelling.

The categories it covers are Wet Grip, Rolling Resistance and Noise. Tyres will be ranked A, B, C, D, E and G for wet grip and rolling resistance and by the number of decibels for noise, this is then shown on a label on the tyre and/or at point of sale. This comes in to effect 1st November 2012.



The second covers the next stage of noise level requirement, from what is currently in place, and the introduction of new wet grip and rolling resistance requirements.

All tyres have to meet these new regulations as follows:

Noise: Tyres produced after 1st November 2016

Wet Grip: Tyres produced after 1st November 2014

Rolling Resistance (Stage 1): Tyres produced after 1st November 2014

Rolling Resistance (Stage 2): Tyres produced after 1st November 2018

There is a provision for a sell-off period of non-compliant stock produced before the dates listed above, this currently stands at 30 months.

To put this in simple terms the R888 in its present form, can be sold/supplied after the 1st November 2014, but only up to 30 months after its production date, as long as it was manufacturered prior to the 1st November 2014.

I hope this clarifies the situation, but if anybody would like to discuss further please give me a call.


Best regards

Alan


Alan Meaker
Motorsport Manager
Toyo Tyres (UK) Ltd
01933 414537

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

In my opinion, it is best to offer an alternative rather than just complain.

 

Hi David,

 

Usually that is true, but due to the MSA process not in this case. A Yes or No is actually better.

[Terry Everall]

David 

I agree with your sentiments but now is the time to stand up and be counted if you oppose the changes. ( It does not affect me!) 

The deadline only really gives time to agree or object as we don't know what alternatives are being considered as the motion is :

MSA Tyre Regulation Change

Proposed Regulation Wheels and tyres

11.6.1. Deleted.

11.6.2. Except for Period Defined Vehicles (NonRally) A-H inclusive tyres are to L List 1A .

Reason: Nationwide harmonisation and cost for what is seen as the entry Category Implementation: 1 st January 2017

 

So IMHO this means only 1A can be used and I think the reasoning is very very weak!

[XTR2Turbo]

OK

 

How about this ...

 

Dear Sirs

 

Thank you for the opportunity to comment on the proposal (https://www.msauk.or...onsultation.pdf) to withdraw the use of tyres from L List 1B for road-going cars in speed competition from 2017 on "cost and harmonisation" grounds.

 

I hold Competition Licence No.xxx and am a member of an affiliated club -  Westfield Sports Car Club.

 

I DO NOT agree with this proposal and specifically the view that it will reduce cost.

 

The classification of standard and performance road going tyres is an important and widely used approach to differentiating classes.

 

Perhaps most importantly within our club, we find that we are most able to attract new entrants to the sport, if they can compete in their car with minimal change. If their car is fitted with performance tyres because they like to occasionally also use on track or enthusiastically on the road, buying a set of 1a tyres and very possibly wheels also, is a barrier that I feel will put off many.

 

I am aware that most of the present 1b tyres will be impacted by the Regulation EC No 661/2009 but it is my expectation that tyre manufacturers will develop equivalent replacements to cater for the trackday and performance car market.

 

I respectively request that you review the proposed rule change.

[Terry Everall]

Good email Dave

[Lumme!]

Thanks to Terry and Nick for bringing this to our attention.  Having stolen David's homework to a fair extent I have opted for the following;

 

'Dear Madam/Sir,
 

By way of introduction, I hold competition license number 232875 and I am a member of the Westfield Sports Car Club (WSCC), which is affiliated to the MSA.  I have been a regular competitor in speed events since 2010, using a road-going kit car.
 
I write to you in relation to the proposal (https://www.msauk.org/assets/speedevents-15april2015shcactionsheet-forconsultation.pdf) to prevent the use of tyres from L List 1B for road-going cars in speed competitions from 1/1/2017 on the grounds of ‘nationwide harmonisation and cost for what is seen as the entry category’.  I would like to state my objection to the proposal on the following grounds:
 
Cost
                The removal of access to L List 1B tyres will have (at least) the following cost implications;
 
1.       I will be obliged to purchase a new set of tyres in order to compete, irrespective of the fact that the tyres I use during the 2016 season will still have ‘life’ in them.
2.       It is likely that I will be obliged to purchase a new set of wheels as L List 1A tyres for my current 13” wheels may be unavailable.
3.       Having purchased new wheels and tyres, the ‘set up’ of the car will need to be re-assessed/modified which may require the purchase of professional services.
 

If I wish to retain current levels of acceleration rates, cornering speeds and deceleration rates I will be obliged to purchase slick tyres and, in all likelihood, make further (costly) modifications to my car to avoid associated issues, e.g. convert to a dry sump.
 

In summary, this revised regulation will definitely increase my costs for 2017, possibly by as much as £1000 if I choose to adopt L List 1A tyres and probably more if I choose to adopt slicks.  This appears to undermine second of the two stated objectives of the change, particularly given that costs are often a critical consideration for entry level motorsport.
 
Should I choose to make this investment it will reduce the extent of my participation in the sport for the year, which will have a (small) negative impact on clubs and venues.  My investment in other equipment and professional services may also be reduced.  If this approach is adopted by other competitors the impact could become significant.
 
Harmonisation
                During my experience of five years of speed competition across the UK, I have never knowingly encountered a fellow competitor using L List 1A tyres.  As such, there seems to be limited/no need for harmonisation, which undermines the first of the two stated objectives of the change.
 
Enjoyment of the sport
                A significant proportion of my enjoyment of the sport relates to experiencing (in a competitive context) acceleration rates, cornering speeds and deceleration rates at levels that could never be safely/legally achieved on the road.  The removal of access to L List 1B tyres with higher levels of grip will reduce the extent of my enjoyment as acceleration rates, cornering speeds and deceleration rates will be reduced.
 

If the proposal has arisen for reasons beyond '‘nationwide harmonisation and cost for what is seen as the entry category’ I respectfully request that these reasons be stated within an revised proposal and the consultation period extended accordingly.

 

I am very appreciative of effective, professional way in which the MSA manages my sport of choice.  I also recognise the value of the opportunity to contribute to the debate in relation to regulations.  Before today, I have never felt the need to object to a proposal; I hope that this goes some way to demonstrating the strength of my view on this topic.
 
Regards,
 
Simon'

[AdamR]

I'm a bit late to the party and will struggle to speak about all the points stated so far, but I like the idea of control tyres for the speed series. Doesn't matter how fast or slow they are as long as everyone is on the same, you just sort new target times.

A set of Falken ZE914 for example are about £200 in 13" (185 and 205 available) and less than this in 195/50/15. Shaving adds about £100 a set for those taking it seriously. Fair bit less than Avons.

Tyres like this really reward the best drivers rather than those who just lob the most cash at the car, they are more fun to drive, can be used on the road safely (therefore only one set of wheels and tyres needed for the 'actual' road-going guys) and in the wet.

May I ask why control tyres didn't work before with the T1Rs? It seems a simple concept to me unless people are blatantly flouting the rules?!

[Terry Everall]

Adam

Are you forgetting that other cars in our class on the day will not use the same control tyre and may well therefore be on better rubber and faster

 

Lets just have 2  classes!!!! SLICKS !!!

[tkm_dave]

Obviously it will be different for everyone, but personally I look at my results vs target time, then compared to everyone else in my WSCC class, finally compared to everyone in my class on the day and sometimes I don't even check that until after the last run. So for me I'd be pretty happy on control tyres just comparing myself to the target and others on control tyres, any pots from the organising club would be a lovely bonus

[AdamR]

I understand what you mean Terry, as Dave said though I think this is the last consideration when comparing yourself to other things (vehicles and target times). Doesn't seem fair to compare a Westy to anything but another Se7en type kit car, of which there seem to be not that many in the sprint paddock, and even then their spec varies hugely?

[Terry Everall]

If you are going to run on cheap 1A tyres many cars will find it difficult to use the power they have in their engines due to a lack of grip! So the people who have invested in upgrades and powerful engines and gearboxes will suffer and will have wasted their money? They will not be happy bunnies

Why not just have a controlled car? Same chassis, same suspension, same gearbox, same engine etc etc.......oh I might just as well buy a Cateringvan

 

At the moment the debate is not about a Controlled Road Going Tyre it is about only being able to use 1A tyres!!

[Lawrie]

I've been rambling on about this for ages.

• A tyre will last up to 7 years, so this move will end up with a lot of scrap tyres - hardly the green move its supposed to be
• So a road legal car, won't be eligible for road legal classes
• Efficiency rated "F" tyres are still being produced and fitted to new cars
• A set of tyres lasts more than 18 months, not just 18 laps
• A period of consultation might have been nice, rather than an edict from upon high

If we vote to leave the EU in 2017, List 1B/F&G rated tyres would be back in production 

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

I understand what you mean Terry, as Dave said though I think this is the last consideration when comparing yourself to other things (vehicles and target times). Doesn't seem fair to compare a Westy to anything but another Se7en type kit car, of which there seem to be not that many in the sprint paddock, and even then their spec varies hugely?

 

Adam, You'll need to be around the Sprint & Hillclimb paddocks a fair bit more to "get" the scene. Terry is comparing Westfields to other 7 cars. What is not talked about much on this site is that our top competitors are just that, the top guys in the UK nationally. They don;t get beaten by anyone in the Kit and Specialist car classes and often beat a lot of single seater cars as well. Also whilst competing in the WSCC Speed Series they will be competing at the same venues in other Championships, often another 2 or 3. So need to be on the best rubber that is available in the class on the day. It's not like the racing I think you are comparing it to. The other very big change is that in racing there are loads of rules restricting what you can do. In Sprints and Hillclimbs there are far less rules especially once you get into Mod Prod. That's part of the attraction to many there are some amazing cars out there, how about a Mini with Mitsubishi EVO running gear or a spaceframe turbo BDA with a turbo that is kept spooled up using a helicopter gas turbine     It's an amazing sport often breaking new technical ground.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

I've sent my email. I kept it simple and told them to b******* off

 

Only joking - I used the main of David Husseys text and got an automatic reply stating that only 1 reply could be sent a day1?

 

 

[Terry Everall]

Same auto reply I got John

Don't know what it means