Garry Bunn - Derby & Notts Joint AO Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Sounds like I'm seeing things through rose tinted specs having not had the experience of competing on 1A tyres. A move to slicks seems increasingly likely in that case So....you'll need more power...more cost..... and the slicks are £400 more than ZZR's .... and you'll need 3 sets to get going....so more wheels..... ouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onliest Smeg David Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I started on 1A - toyo T1Rs but was forced into 1Bs so I did not become the wooden spoon holder. Would rather have not had to spend the money. And maybe half that money is effectively going to go down the pan But... We need to hold our horses until we know exactly how this change will effect sprint regulations and classes, especially for us road cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 AFAIK the proposal is for all road going classes to use list 1A tyres but Nick has more detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 What is out for consultation by the MSA is the effective ban of all tyres not on the list 1A from the 1st January 2017. Consulation ends on the 12th June 2015 so anyone who wishes to comment can do so via the email address that Terry posted. I initially thought this would not affect our cars, but as the rules are now written it does, together with all roadgoing cars ie Porsche, Ferrari, Morgan etc all the one make classes. David is correct that there are a lot of changes being bought in by the tyre manufacturers at the moment and no-one is sure what the effect will be. However I am pretty sure that the likes of Ferrari and Porsche which currently run 1B tyres will want something similar so would suggest that whilst they might not be quiet as sticky 1B tyres will still be available. Equally Avon have rather cornered the market with ZZR tyres so bet they keep them !! I agree with the points about scrubbed 1A tyres and remember people spending silly money to get the last little bit out of the tyres. So am not convinced that 1B are that much more expensive. It's effect on the Speed Series is to very much limit what we can do to differentiate the classes and allow us as a club to set our own rules to get the classes our competitors want. It's up to you whether you make any representation to the MSA, but if you are concerned then you should do as this is the last chance you will get. In fact even if you are not a current competitor it makes sense also as it can affect you in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Oh and of course not to forget that if you are on 1B's on 13" wheels at the moment you will need to go and buy a new set of wheels as 1A's don;t come in 13" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidgh Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 FWIW, having not read this thread, I have sent the following to the MSA: Dear Sirs As background, I hold Competition Licence No.181463 and am a member of affiliated clubs: Borough 19 Motor Club, Westfield Sports Car Club, and RAFMSA. I have competed in sprints regularly since 2004 in road-going kit-cars (Striker and Westfield with 1600cc car derived engines). I refer to the proposal (https://www.msauk.org/assets/speedevents-15april2015shcactionsheet-forconsultation.pdf) to outlaw the use of tyres from L List 1B for road-going cars in speed competition from 2017 on "cost and harmonisation" grounds. With regard to "harmonisation", I must know personally at least a hundred competitors running kit cars in road-going classes, and cannot think of a single one currently using List 1A tyres. As kits almost always compete only against other "kits and replicas", it is difficult to envisage with whom it is intended we be "harmonised". On cost, each of these competitors (assuming they remain such) is going to have to "invest" in a new set of tyres for 2017 (many can make a set of List 1B tyres last two or three seasons). Also there will undoubtedly then be a "performance war" as in the past when it suddenly became received wisdom that the Scudo Stunner was the grippiest tyre available in List 1A. Many competitors will find themselves "reinvesting" if they think they have made the incorrect initial choice. Worse still, almost all competition oriented road-going kit cars run on 13" wheels -- for which there is a dearth of List 1A rubber available. Many competitors will therefore find themselves having to buy a new set of 15" wheels -- adding weight (unsprung at that) to their cars. Whilst most will run lower profile tyres on 15" wheels to avoid having to change differential ratios, that fact might well require set-up adjustments. Once again, it is difficult to imagine that anyone will feel that their motor sport has been rendered cheaper. If there is an unstated fuel economy argument with regard to the mandated use of "less sticky" tyres, it should be remembered that most speed competitors will cover no more than 200 miles on track in a season -- meaning that any difference is de minimis. Lastly, the main point missed is that amateur motor sport competitors pursue their hobby because it is fun. I don't think many kit-car competitors will be found who think that driving such a car on 1A tyres is comparable in enjoyment to having 1Bs. Some, me probably included, may simply seek their enjoyment elsewhere. I think that you will be able to tell that I do not support the proposition, and hope you will rethink. With regards 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Looks like class H could become very popular and G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete g Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 well said David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onliest Smeg David Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The MSA appear to have made a decision to effectively ban the use of list 1B tyres from all road going classes from Jan 2017. IMHO this will ruin the meaning of class records (set on 1B tyres) and will make a nonsense of our target time system. Everyone will go slower and there are many makes of car that may not be able to compete as there is no suitable 1B tyre available Please make your concerns known by supporting opposition to this proposal ( unless of course you agree with it) SpeedConsultation@msauk.org Maybe our speed series committee should object, as well, on behalf of Westfield Competitors email sent. Perhaps SS committee should also send email this to all SS competitors, as many are not regulars on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkm_dave Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The change in tyre diameters is something I hadn't considered to be honest, and that does sound like a pain in the bum. Nor the race to find which tyre is the fastest of the list none of us have ever used before. Still sticking by my ideas of a control tyre if we are somehow forced to go to 1A tyres at some point though. That said, I am about to email the MSA with my vote against any regs changes in light of the points everywone has made (and attempt not to sound a fool compared to David's eloquent arguments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Dave. Don't think you were around in 2006 when a control tyre was introduced into the Speed Series. Let's just say it didn't happen and did rather ruin the Awards Dinner!! Timing was in hindsight not great, which is why we discuss the rules on the Sunday morning not before!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Dave H has posted an excellent, well thought out email and if we all think the same then we should act now to ensure our ideas are considered I do not think a control tyre will work ( similar to the Toyo situation) as unless we pick "THE BEST 1A TYRE" whatever that is then our cars may well be disadvantaged at events where we compete against other makes of car in the same classes. My objection has now been sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkm_dave Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 If these rule changes end up going through and we're not on a control tyre I'd be tempted to stick a 'blade engine in mine and come for a play in G. Double driving would help with slick costs too and been chatting to AdamR about just such a scenario, maybe this will force the issue in the end. I'd rather a lightweight war rather than a horses war any day. My objection has been emailed to the MSA, but time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Sirs I wish to oppose the proposal to restrict all Road Going Classes to using List 1A tyres from Jan 2017. I compete in Sprints and Hillclimbs and have done so for many years driving a Westfield Kit Car. My National A licence number is 160936.I have competed on 1A tyres, 1B and for the last 6 years on slicks and whilst the issue does not currently affect me I feel it will have a detrimental effect on amateur motorsport. Westfield ,as a club, are trying to encourage more people to compete in whatever Westfield they currently own. I would assume that 95% of these people own a car fitted with 13" wheels and 1B tyres. It is rare to see a Westfield car with 15" wheels on 1A tyres.I feel that the cost of changing tyres to list 1A and also having to buy 15" rims is a an unnecessary additional cost and will put people off from either starting in motorsport or partaking in events. It appears to me that entries are already declining over the past 2 years and I cannot understand the reason for the proposed change particularly when it will make roadgoing cars go slower and all current class records will be negated as they were set on 1B tyres. It is also my opinion that many cars are used almost exclusively to compete in (for example nearly all Westfield road going kit cars are fitted with full roll cages as well as other equipment which does not make for a comfortable drive on the road even though the cars are fully compliant with , insurance,tax and MOT) which makes any environmental issue a little less relevant as the cars only do about 100 miles per year in total.Terry Everall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidgh Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Nice one, Terry -- but we need more agitators! Will the SS committee coordinate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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