Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I have to agree with Norman (!). My school - a boys' secondary modern in a suburban town - never had teachers attacked, never had a single instance of violence beyond the odd punch up (and a punch in the face was remarkable for its rarity), and misbehaviour did not exceed bit of petty theft, running in the corridors, shop lifting in Woolworth's across the road, and smoking behind the bike sheds. No child left his desk when the bell rang unless and until the teacher let them go, masters were 'Sir' and corporal punishment was practised regularly - both formally with a cane, and ad hoc when an ear was clipped or a shoulder pushed firmly. Local schools were both better and worse but never was the need for frisking, metal detection, or police presence ever deemed necessary. The size of schools - c.500 pupils - was far smaller than schools today. I despair for any diligent and ambitious child... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue ass fly Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I dont think its the fact that its a child killer I think its a child killing a figure of authority that makes it different Sure , kids have killed in the past but this is the first case of a teacher being murdered in a school if ime not mistaken Things are getting worse - all the time Were gangs of school kids walking round inner cities with guns years ago Were they walking into school 'tooled up' I certainly never knew any of my mates in the 70's being armed,nor any neighbouring schools The fact that police have to sit at bus stops and outside schools in riot vans proves the point Its getting worse every generation and until people accept the problem is real there cannot be a remedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 Nick, the criminals you describe are not really children. They are young adults and adults. If you watched the programme on BBC 4 last night about the Welsh detective, even though it was fiction, it raised a moral dilemma about cause and effect. Two kids in a kids home became murderers purely from the way they were abused, tortured even. Most of the above posts say that it isn't society that has allowed us to develop into the state we are in. But the reasons cited are just that - society. Don't believe Thatchers take that there is no society, only people. Society is the grouping of those people and a very powerful force it can be. I truly believe that we, society, can change things. We can, for example insist our justice system is run by the judiciary with tariffs that allow the correct sentencing to be exercised regardless of the cost of keeping people in prisons. Then we must insist that prisoners get a good education as well as work for their keep. Parliament, it seems to me, sets tariffs that keep our prison population down. Spend a few hours on the Paris metro and you will see justice the French way. Pickpockets beaten sensless by several black suited and helmeted riot police then thrown into the back of the van to be taken to goal. The other side of the coin is that the US states with death sentences for first degree murder (or just murder?) have the same murder rate than those that don't. Sentencing is not a deterrent, but it should be used for re-education as well as punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue ass fly Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 The problem is that governments pass these tougher sentencing bills to pacify us The min sentence for carrying a knife came in years ago - anyone know of anyone locked up for 4 years for carrying a knife Nor me They get confiscated , cautioned then theyre back out-nick another knife and back to sq1 Having said that i was watching a documentry over the weekend where a prisoner didnt want to be released because it was better inside Food,drink,heat,mates,relative safety,money None of which is guaranteed on release What a mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibby Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 ...Were gangs of school kids walking round inner cities with guns years ago Were they walking into school 'tooled up'.... I used to carry a penknife daily. I never had it confiscated because I didn't wave it about in front of teachers and never stuck it in anyone (surprisingly!). BB guns were also rife. Wrap a jumper round it so nobody heard it, shoot your mate in the leg at the back of class and watch his eyes water. Black Widow and Diablo catapults, air rifles, Grandad's old Gurhka kukri, a samurai swords, we all had weapons as kids. We just had the common sense not to [seriously] hurt anyone with them. I've always imagined the mods and rockers battles to involve clubs and chains and be far more serious than kids fighting today. Or black American teens fighting the authorities in the race riots. Compared to modern teens rioting in London a couple of years back, they're too busy setting fires, stealing, posting a selfie and running away. I always imagined the past to be far more violent than the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 Dibby, when are you talking about, sounds like the 90s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVP66S Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 This American graduated from high school in 1970 in a small town in rural Pennsylvania. People were polite, kids were polite and there were always the few exceptions. My father went deer huntin' most every year and we had venison for the next month. I think it's generally accepted that bad kids are caused by bad parents. Since then I've lived in New York, Maryland, Florida, Alabama, now California and am in the process of moving to Texas (my last move). I've watched this change in society and it's obvious that some of it is a function of the times and some of it is location related. California and Texas have about the same per capita murder rate. California has the most restrictive gun ownership laws and Texas has among the most liberal. If you look at the gun related murders among all the states, there is no correlation. The news media are really good at replaying the horrors of a murder, but they are not good on reporting the number of crimes prevented by an armed citizen. I personally know of one crime prevented by a citizen pulling a gun and facing down the would-be criminal who ran away. That citizen did not want any publicity. OK, that's just one anecdotal incident, but I'm sure it's not rare. I happen to agree with the old adage that: "An armed society is a polite society" Do I carry a gun? No, but I always have a knife. I see in this thread questions regarding where is this society headed? I have another anecdote. When I worked for the Enormous Aerospace Company (not mentioning names, but they're based in Seattle ) I had to attend "sensitivity training" because we were on a government contract (Space Station). The instructor explained that the US is no longer a melting pot, it's a salad, and that this is better because ethnic diversity is good. I thought long and hard about that and concluded that I don't agree. Accepting people who hate you, people who just take from the whole is not good. At least the melting pot can have a common set of values. Tolerance is a problem, but I'd rather work on that than deal with official acceptance of people who hate me. Another anecdote. I'm working on building my Westie. I hired a local out-of-work woman to sweep and clean a few hours a week. I was paying her $10 per hour. This only lasted a few weeks and I never heard from her. I found out what happened is that she got onto welfare and now stays at home and watches TV. Why work when you can just collect money? Whats my point? Our society used to have a thread of "work hard and get ahead" now it's more like "what can I get for me?" I'm late for work. More later if the moderator hasn't banned me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 Not sure we should be getting into society in the US, it's different to the UK but we're getting closer all the time. Your comment about "people who hate us" sounds like a Daily Mail headline. I can only say I've worked with many immigrant groups, arab, North African, Eastern European, even Americans and Aussies. I've never found hate only a bit of mistrust and wariness. I found if both parties were straight and open the trust came in in bucketfuls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibby Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Dibby, when are you talking about, sounds like the 90s Late 80s to early 90s. Left school in the mid 90s. Does that make me one of these tear-ass yoofs who have no respect for authority and regularly stab people because society had abandoned me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I disagree with the New Labour idea of a multi-cultural Britain (multi-ethnic or multi-racial is fine if assimilation takes place over time) because while peoples are encouraged to remain separate, they do not move together with each other and the indigenous populace, but tend to oppose each other. Strife, distrust, and resentment is inevitable especially when so much change takes place so quickly. However, I don't believe that is the cause of this problem. It may be responsible for the re-emergence of racism, but this pervasive violence we are discussing crosses all boundaries of race and creed in most of Britain, it seems. The mods and rockers 'outings' were not rioting, neither were they particularly serious compared with true riots such as those of Notting Hill, Tottenham, and Brixton. The mods/rockers events were newsworthy because they happened in the 'silly-season' of no-news, but they happened only a few times and as far as I can recall, nobody died. They were inter-tribal skirmishes mainly for the hell of it and most of the participants went home on the Sunday to go to work the next day! I should add that I did not take part, nor was I ever tempted as I'm a non-conforming sort of individual who tends to veer away from the popular things and go my own way. Anyway, I might have been hurt! The genie seems to be out of the bottle when it comes to disrespect of authority, concern for the consequences of committing GBH, and of any form of civic responsibility. Like sexual permissiveness, it is going to take a sea-change in attitude over generations to reverse. I do not believe it can be done unilaterally - the Internet has built upon the deeds perpetrated by the mass media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 Oh you pessimist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVP66S Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Not sure we should be getting into society in the US, it's different to the UK but we're getting closer all the time. Your comment about "people who hate us" sounds like a Daily Mail headline. I can only say I've worked with many immigrant groups, arab, North African, Eastern European, even Americans and Aussies. I've never found hate only a bit of mistrust and wariness. I found if both parties were straight and open the trust came in in bucketfuls. "Not sure we should be getting into society in the US, it's different to the UK but we're getting closer all the time." I thought the discussion was about human societies and their direction. "Your comment about "people who hate us" sounds like a Daily Mail headline." I don't read the Daily Mail. I was referring to two specific communities in the US. A small but definite minority. I'll concede it's a tiny fraction. Also tiny compared to the 'takers' I'm mostly referring to. "I can only say I've worked with many immigrant groups, arab, North African, Eastern European, even Americans and Aussies. I've never found hate only a bit of mistrust and wariness. I found if both parties were straight and open the trust came in in bucketfuls" Same experiences here, but I'm not talking about people in the workforce. And I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about people who remove themselves from the workforce. You and I kinda by definition have not worked with them. (Immigrants? As far as I'm concerned, *all* Americans are immigrants. And yes, I do know that the Statue of Liberty was a French gift.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Gibney - Lancashire AO Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I work in a school ( not a teacher ) The lack of respect to teachers is appalling the parents don't give a monkeys So why should the kids. They respect myself and my staff because not being part of the teaching staff I can get away with a bit more . We treat them like young adults don't patronise them or shout and scream at them as teachers do. ( I am only talking about the school I work in Incase any teachers are reading this) If there is a problem when they are in my class ( the restaurant ) I will pull them into the kitchen and read them the riot act Never had a problem with any student after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Verona Posted April 29, 2014 Author Share Posted April 29, 2014 NVP, too much to respond to other than I was clearly referring to UK society. Isn't there some responsibility from society not to allow people to "drop out" to the detriment of the rest of hardworking, self sufficient people. Definition of "Society" a large group of people who live together in an organized way, making decisions about how to do things and sharing the work that needs to be done. All the people in a country, or in several similar countries, can be referred to as a society: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyonspride Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I work in a school ( not a teacher ) The lack of respect to teachers is appalling the parents don't give a monkeys So why should the kids. Well this is the thing, parents blame the teachers (or ADHD) for their kids behaviour, but the teachers are powerless to control the kids. The cold hard truth is we have too many broken families in this country and MANY kids are growing up mollycoddled and with no idea of discipline. It'll only get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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