Controlling costs / expert classes

[Captain Colonial]

Scott

 

I might be wrong but I don't think the suggestion is to ensure that everyone has an absolutely identically powered engine but to narrow the range so it is comparable.

 

Today you could have in Class D someone with a stock 2.0 Zetec at 130 bhp and someone with a supercharged duratec running 375bhp.

 

Yes - I'm just wondering how one proves output to the satisfaction of all and the associated costs therein.

[Captain Colonial]

Sorry gang, another thought entered my twisted mind.  If one had various horsepower categories, and had the bhp of the car established on a single mandated rolling road (thus accounting for variations on different rolling roads), what would stop an unscrupulous competitor from doing something like changing the mapping, i.e. temporarily dialling the mapping on his car that produces 220 bhp down to 199 bhp for testing to enter a class that was for 175-200 bhp, then reflashing back up afterwards?

 

Again gents, I'm not in charge, not being negative, and I'm not poo-pooing the idea, just really interesting to know how it would work in practice to ensure complete transparency and absolute fairness - trying to educate myself here.

[Mid life crisis]

With a 40mm restricted induction, in truth most drivers of low power cars would not have an issue, as a substantal number are running on twin 40's anyway.

 

 

There will of course be a variation in output as XTR2 has pointed out, just not such a wide range.

[Mid life crisis]

Sorry gang, another thought entered my twisted mind.  If one had various horsepower categories, and had the bhp of the car established on a single mandated rolling road (thus accounting for variations on different rolling roads), what would stop an unscrupulous competitor from doing something like changing the mapping, i.e. temporarily dialling the mapping on his car that produces 220 bhp down to 199 bhp for testing to enter a class that was for 175-200 bhp, then reflashing back up afterwards?

 

Again gents, I'm not in charge, not being negative, and I'm not poo-pooing the idea, just really interesting to know how it would work in practice to ensure complete transparency and absolute fairness - trying to educate myself here.

Would be interested to see a 220BHP engine set up on 40's

[M444TTB]

The Kumho BMW challenge ran (or runs - I've not looked in a long time) to power to weight categories. I think the cars had to go to a specific set of rollers on a specific day, the engines were them sealed and the cars weighed at each round. Doable but all a bit of a pain in the A*** if you ask me.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Would be interested to see a 220BHP engine set up on 40's

Hello

[M444TTB]

On the mapping front I can't remember what they did but there were measures in place.

[Captain Colonial]

Would be interested to see a 220BHP engine set up on 40's

 

Let's not cherry-pick here, I'm just talking in general terms of fairness, although a few posts ago, David gave the example that, "Today you could have in Class D someone with a stock 2.0 Zetec at 130 bhp and someone with a supercharged duratec running 375bhp."

 

So what I'm saying is this: Is it a case of either ensuring everyone has the same horsepower output (which I doubt); or establishing tighter horsepower classes to ensure fairer competition?  If it's the latter, it takes me back to my original question: How would one prove absolutely and independently the bhp on each car at each race, and what would be the associated costs that the competitors and organisers would have to bear?

[Captain Colonial]

Or do we go with a Duckworth-Lewis system, where Driver Experience + Laden Car Weight + BHP / Class Denominator Figure x Lap Time = Points (all right, I know that's round hairy objects, but they use it in cricket - not for me to say it's fair, just as an example).  I doubt anyone would want to go to that type of thing, least of all the compilers - but I've seen this sort of thing get well over-complicated before.  That's not saying the current system is perfect, either.

 

Back to the original topic, controlling costs, I'm just illustrating that while it's laudable, it's also obviously very difficult it not impossible.

 

(I'm sure Nick is cursing at me for entering this thread - sorry mate, I'll shut up now.     Curious minds want to know.)

[Mid life crisis]

Let's not cherry-pick here, I'm just talking in general terms of fairness, although a few posts ago, David gave the example that, "Today you could have in Class D someone with a stock 2.0 Zetec at 130 bhp and someone with a supercharged duratec running 375bhp."

 

So what I'm saying is this: Is it a case of either ensuring everyone has the same horsepower output (which I doubt); or establishing tighter horsepower classes to ensure fairer competition?  If it's the latter, it takes me back to my original question: How would one prove absolutely and independently the bhp on each car at each race, and what would be the associated costs that the competitors and organisers would have to bear?

How would one prove absolutely and independently the bhp on each car at each race

 

I don't believe you could Scott and if you did, it would be horribly expensive.

 

 

I think the best that can be achived is to reduce the range of engine output.

[XTR2Turbo]

Scott

 

I think the only way to achieve what you say is supplied and sealed engines which is not I think what is being proposed.

 

In the case of engines, I would be surprised if a general rule could limit to within 50 bhp but that might still be better than nothing. Also as mentioned previously, you can to a degree offset changes in power in other ways with weight and handling improvemets

 

Also as others have said this may be more forward looking and anticipating further issues rather than here and now changes impacting current competitors.  I'm sure no one would want to force changes for example on this years entrants competing in the series next year. 

 

For example you could ban turbo charging or supercharging from classes B and D in the same way we don't allow sequential boxes. At the moment I don't think it would impact anyone but it would stop a potential drift in that direction.

 

I think that there are three questions

 

1) Would it be desirable to have cars in each class to be of broadly comparable performance

2) If yes what would the criteria / thresholds be

3) To what extent should it be enforced by guidance or restrictions

[alexander72]

I like it as it is chaps - i'm only really competing against myself and I still find it a great buzz - and to be honest i'm in awe of the driving skills of Hill, Loudon, Pennington, Hillam, Slingsby, Bunn, Everall x2 and Hodder....

 

I also just like all the planning and having a bun fight for a weekend :-)

[pickmaster Andy Lowe]

I like it as it is chaps - i'm only really competing against myself and I still find it a great buzz - and to be honest i'm in awe of the driving skills of Hill, Loudon, Pennington, Hillam, Slingsby, Bunn, Everall x2 and Hodder....

I also just like all the planning and having a bun fight for a weekend :-)

ME TOO

Well said

[FILFAN]

No need for drastic changes as it would put more people off and exclude some if iur current drivers.

If someone is in 2 clubs such as the reverend and had to change his car to meet our new rules he would then be at a disadvantage in his other club.

Then if we all restricted out inlet its going to cost hundreds of pounds to re map all the cars. I did speak to nick earlier in the year about bhp classes and agree that it would be impossible to police especially with switchable engine maps

[alexander72]

of course this is all subjective and merely in reply to David's original question but i dont see a need to change anything from how it is now.

 

Competiton is across the board, experts,  novices , small engines, big engines. blowers, carbon etc is all up the driver/team/budget. 

 

 

Some will have big budgets and some like me will have hardly any budget and drive to Blyton in an x reg tree truck  hoping it makes it back without blowing up!!!

 

We have a brilliant paddock with huge experience and fun regardless of budget and ability. 

 

I look up as well to Chris Bennett - IMO the driver of the year behind Barry Slingsby in his blue 4age... he drove to all events and wrung the neck out of his car in my class.  He has real talent and will be my target to get near his times.  It was also really good to see Onliest Smeg, Shaggy and Lee Smith having a go with John Williams all from the North - we had great fun at Curbs and their times improved lap by lap.

 

Finally, I think that there is so much fun to be had in the speed series for any WSCC member with ANY car to come and have a go.  The support you will get from everyone in the paddock means you wont look back at all.

 

James

 

Roll on March :-)