Mid life crisis Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 MLC - I was only joking on giving everyone a cross flow… half the fun is trying to beat a zetec/duratec/xe :-) I'm still trying but enjoying it all the same :-) No big deal beating Zetec / XE powered cars with a crossflow, been there and done that No chance with the 200bhp plus machinery though, which with the target times set by these cars, was the reason I no longer compete in the SS Your idea of a lower power / lower cost class, is a very good one though. However it seems from previous posts that lower power is considered the domain of novices, and any serious competitor needs to spend shed loads in the search of power to be competitive. A lower power class as you suggest would probably be more well supported by the overall membership of the club with their road going cars. Instead of the present situation of, when you loose your Novice status, progression into "C" or "D" requires in the region 200BHP or you are just making up the number of entries. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 No chance with the 200bhp plus machinery though, which with the target times set by these cars, was the reason I no longer compete in the SS :) You should have tried a BEC cos they are competitive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid life crisis Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Terry how much do you recon the cost to change from a crossflow se narrow, to a bec engined car would be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Zero if you buy one in the first place Conversion would be about £4k-5k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 The problem facing us is that A low powered class would only be relavent to the Speed Series . You would still have to compete against the more powerful cars 'on the day'at the events. However I would be interested to hear - Where you would put the class breaks , ie cubic capacity, or BHP ,or engine type , or other? Would you run modified Xflows/ CVH against std 16v engines ? ( some x/flows are 85hp others can be 175hp) What about Pintos and low powered 2-0L cars Would you let experts in the class if they had low powered cars? How would you determine/police what power an engine has? What about Gearboxes, tyres, Bec power, lightweight carbon bits , alloy hubs/brakes etc? . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander72 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 All good points stu. I love my cross flow and I'm still learning so I will be sticking with it. This year I'm going to be more organised so I can walk the course each time. I didn't manage it once last year :-(. Also might get newer tyres and a pressure gauge. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid life crisis Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 The problem facing us is that A low powered class would only be relavent to the Speed Series . For many club members that I am sure would be fine You would still have to compete against the more powerful cars 'on the day'at the events. Yes but you would receive points towards the SS championship However I would be interested to hear - Where you would put the class breaks , ie cubic capacity, or BHP ,or engine type , or other? Possibly induction restrictions, i.e. a simple blanking plate on the carbs / TB'S maybe at 40mm to restrict airflow. If a car can't breethe it won't make big power Would you run modified Xflows/ CVH against std 16v engines ? ( some x/flows are 85hp others can be 175hp) I think you would need to allow any suitable restricted car to enter the class What about Pintos and low powered 2-0L cars 2 clases, up to 1700 and over Would you let experts in the class if they had low powered cars? Yes How would you determine/police what power an engine has? There would be no need to determine the engine power. Policing would be fairly easy, just a piece of 40mm steel bar. If the competitor was suspected of breaking the rules, they would be requested to remove an air filter, and a check made as to the diameter of their restrictor plate What about Gearboxes, tyres, Bec power, lightweight carbon bits , alloy hubs/brakes etc? I think these should be left in the hands of the competitor . I didn't say it would be easy Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Stu You raise important points here and I think they are way too difficult to police and control. Also I cant see any competitor wanting to restrict their engine power etc as we all want to go as quick as our cars will let us. The MSA is also full of disputes and penalties due to controlled engines and technical requirements being abused. We all compete on the day against other clubs and their cars and compare ourselves to them ( as well as winning trophies) so its not just the speed series ( e.g. Last year Tim Nunn won Longton Sprint Championship and this year I did the same) We also have had 5 drivers taking FTD and you cant do that in uncompetitive cars. There is also a risk that we would lose competitors who would join clubs and championships without such controls. Just enjoy what car you have and get the best out of it Nobody has to upgrade if they dont want to. I believe we have good classes to accommodate everyone What about a weight handicap ( weight does make a big difference to our cars ) and an easier target for over 60? I cant see that happening!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid life crisis Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Terry there would be no change to your or any other competitors class, and you would still compete as you have in the past. What I have sugested is a restricted class for low powered cars running on 40mm induction, for those who do not wan't to spend £0000, on upgrades, but would like to compete with similar powered cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I'm all for a weight handicap! Low power/standard cars classes are good in theory, but look at the facts: in the last couple of years of the old type classes A & B there just weren't the entrants. They were badly supported classes. In contrast, the old class F (increasingly big power) was very well supported. Now, the new class D is just the same, big power and well supported. The fact is that for the sort of people who buy a Westfield and want to sprint, big power and light weight are what appeals in the main, not to everybody, but to the majority, it would seem. Certainly, that is why when I was thinking of buying my car, about 6 years ago, I looked first at Westfield rather than at one of the competitors. I'm old enough to remember how excited I was at the concept of the original Seight when it was lanched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry S Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 While I admire the sentiments of low cost motorsport its just not feasible, as Terry has said some of the most expensive categories are the ones with restrictions on everything, just look at karting!! Anyhow, I’m up for the restricted 8 valve class, all I have to do is spend a few quid on an uber lightweight carbon fibre everything chassis, flappy paddle gearbox, trick transmission, trick brakes etc (easily more expensive than a trick engine) and have a ball setting a few target times! Where does that leave the novice with his std road going cross flow? What gets forgotten in these debates is that many of the people with whats viewed as “exotic” cars have spent many years of carful investment getting the most out of their package and would not be in a position to upgrade their cars to the current spec over one winter….. Don’t forget, good things come to those who wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Out of curiosity only, and not wishing to stir the pot at all, to those proposing the idea of horsepower classes, just wondering how one would go about proving it? Would you need an independent rolling road at each event to test each competitor? Test it once at the beginning of the season and then put official seals on the engine that show if if it has been disassembled, in which case the engine would have to be re-tested and re-sealed? One just needs to look at the Zetec range that's anywhere from 115 bhp to an awful lot more than that, with sometimes minimal exterior clues, to see that people would not be happy simply taking the word of others on bhp without a test. Not trashing the idea, just wondering how it would work in reality and the associated costs involved - can't see it being cheap for the competitor or organisers, but happy to be illuminated and educated as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid life crisis Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Out of curiosity only, and not wishing to stir the pot at all, to those proposing the idea of horsepower classes, just wondering how one would go about proving it? Would you need an independent rolling road at each event to test each competitor? Test it once at the beginning of the season and then put official seals on the engine that show if if it has been disassembled, in which case the engine would have to be re-tested and re-sealed? One just needs to look at the Zetec range that's anywhere from 115 bhp to an awful lot more than that, with sometimes minimal exterior clues, to see that people would not be happy simply taking the word of others on bhp without a test. Not trashing the idea, just wondering how it would work in reality and the associated costs involved - can't see it being cheap for the competitor or organisers, but happy to be illuminated and educated as always. If the club decided to go down the road of restricted induction, no further cheks would be required. A 40mm limit would regulate pretty much any engines max power output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Colonial Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 If the club decided to go down the road of restricted induction, no further cheks would be required. A 40mm limit would regulate pretty much any engines max power output. Really? It would make no difference what pistons, cams, ignition system, etc was in / on the engine, they'd all have the same power? That surprises me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR2Turbo Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Scott I might be wrong but I don't think the suggestion is to ensure that everyone has an absolutely identically powered engine but to narrow the range so it is comparable. Today you could have in Class D someone with a stock 2.0 Zetec at 130 bhp and someone with a supercharged duratec running 375bhp. I'm not sure it even needs to be as strict as a mechanical limit but a gentlemanly agreed upper limit stated for classes A - D or guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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