The finest brains in Britain.....

[Wile E. Coyote]

I have no problem paying a bit extra for things from the UK. But if a Honda dealer can ship a large heavy box by DHL with tracking and recorded delivery for £15 I query why the government charge £72.86 for exactly the same thing.

 

When we got a passport sent earlier this year, they used a dedicated secure carrier (DX if memory serves correctly) - not the likes of DHL/UPS etc - suspect it's because they're more concerned about them going walkies than Honda would be (for Honda any loss is purely financial, whereas the the implications of a bag of passports going missing could be more serious).

 

Operationally, there just won't the same economies of scale for secure mailing as for regular couriers.

[Mike H]

It's a test to see if you are a fit person to have a UK passport.  You're pretty close to failing !

 

LOL

 

Perhaps there are no addresses on the form so they don't have to reprint them when it changes ??

[Norman Verona]

Wile, or maybe it's because the Honda dealer has to compete in the market place and the government can charge what it wants.

 

The government use G4S to look after and transport prisoners, some are dangerous people. On that basis I suspect it's more like a money question than one of security. Anyway if a batch of passports go missing they will know, have the numbers and they will be of no use to go out or in the country.

[Norman Verona]

Mike, understand that, but the process centre has been the same now for a number of years. As the form is downloaded it can be changed instantly.

 

However, if you don't want to put the address on the form or the 16 page guidance notes then at least put the link on the notes to the page with the address, not just the home page of you.gov. I didn't realise you had to pass in intelligence test to get a passport.

 

OK, so why bother. They just get paid whatever they do, it wouldn't be fun if they used some common sense.

[Young Pretender]

... do not seem to be able to design a passport application form that's easy enough to complete without a 16 page explanatory guide.

 

 

Then to really take the proverbial there is no address on the form or the guide as to where to send the forms, photo's and old passports.

 

So you are directed to you.gov. Not the page with the address but the home page of the whole site.

 

Type in "address for passports" and you get to the home page for passports. You then read down all the heading and about number 36 says "where to send your application". This page then gives you a lengthy explanation of all the stuff you've already read in the guidance notes and at the bottom - an address.

 

Oh, and it will cost us £295.72 for two passports. Rip of Britain - No wonder!

That'll be because if they put the address on the form and then change their admin practices I.e move that process to another address then they'll need to completely re-paper costing lots of money. Likewise the web pages might change but the home page should be fairly static. Makes sense when operating to such scale.

You could argue that they should get their house in order and make a lasting operational decision but where's the fun in that!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Wile, or maybe it's because the Honda dealer has to compete in the market place and the government can charge what it wants.

 

I thought you were complaining about the cost of shipping, not of the passport itself?  Both the courier used by Honda and HMG are commercial outfits that have to compete in the market with others of their ilk.

 

The only way you'd significantly reduce the shipping element when obtaining a passport would be to convince the relevant authorities that a non-secure courier would be more appropriate.  I can't imagine them going for that though...

It's also a little naive to think that a dodgy passport would only be of use to go in/out of the UK.  I've been to some places where the passport desks sure as hell aren't linked to any computer system and it would almost certainly be possible to get away with a dodgy passport.  Likewise, passports are seen as primary ID in the UK - often used for many other non-transportation purposes.  I can imagine that some less than decent people might find an extra one handy.

 

If the shipping cost irks you so much, why not just do the "on the spot" thing at the passport office next time you're in the UK?

[Young Pretender]

Ah I'm way behind Mike!

[Norman Verona]

So we have two shipping companies. One is worldwide. Delivers millions of parcels daily, all tracked and signed for by the recipient. When DHL deliver to me they ask if I'm the person names on the package and then ask my name. I sign on paper and on the electronic tracking device.

 

I've no idea how DX work, maybe they have armed guards, maybe they wish to see proof of identity, who knows? Oh, I will in 4 weeks time.

 

I'm not complaining about the cost of delivery per se, the point I make is why do the government charge £72.86 for what is basically the same service others charge substantially less. I conclude it's because the GOVERNMENT have no competition. It's not the carrier, who knows what they charge the government. 

 

 

The £76.86 is less than 2p a day for the life of the passport.

 

I know I'm a grumpy old man, I accept I rant on. But if you can't see why I'm grossly dissatisfied with the way things are run in the UK, taking a month to send a letter to a British subject in France, charging £72.86 to deliver a package and saying it's because it needs a secure carrier, I won't go on, I could but I'd be wasting my time.

 

A philosopher once said that society get the police force it deserves. Well if I may paraphrase that, the British public are getting the Government it deserves.

 

Maybe you should come and live here to see how elected officials know that they've been elected to look after the people and be as efficient with the resources as they can, given the systems they have in place. I probably wouldn't have noticed all the jokes I see daily on BBC news and Breakfast Show if I hadn't been exposed to the systems here.

 

May I give you food for thought. When the insurance database came into effect the French Government ceased their Road Tax as the data they obtained from it, the owner of the vehicles details, was now held on the MIDB. The cost of the Road Tax here covered the cost of admin, it was not to raise tax. Why doesn't the UK government cancel the RFL and add, say, 4p to the price of a litre of fuel? I have my theories, what's yours?

[Wile E. Coyote]

 But if you can't see why I'm grossly dissatisfied with the way things are run in the UK, taking a month to send a letter to a British subject in France, charging £72.86 to deliver a package and saying it's because it needs a secure carrier, I won't go on, I could but I'd be wasting my time.

 

<snip>

 

Maybe you should come and live here to see how elected officials know that they've been elected to look after the people and be as efficient with the resources as they can, given the systems they have in place.

 

Fwiw, I've been pretty happy with the service I've received whenever I've applied for/renewed passports in the UK and have never found the costs egregious.

 

Your dissatisfaction seems to stem from the fact that:

 

1) You're not happy with the way you receive services overseas; and

2) You think the French are massively more efficient and responsive.

 

There is however usually a big difference in the way that a government works locally and when dealing with citizens overseas.  Indeed, I remember a French friend of mine bemoaning the French authorities in a similar vein.  His reason?  Simple: it was impossible for him to renew his passport without appearing in person at the Embassy in London to collect it.  Quite a trek that from Manchester...  Their reason?  Security.

 

I'd argue that having the facility to have it delivered, at a cost of ~£70, is being a damned sight more responsive (and probably costs the typical Brit in France less) than forcing you to travel to Paris to do it.

[Norman Verona]

Exactly. I've paid my tax and NI for 44 years. I still pay tax through my company. 

 

 

When we got here a British couple were telling us that to get a new passport you had to make an appointment at the embassy in Paris, turn up and collect it and it cost about £250. I'm not sure if they were correct but it seems it's now changed and can be done by post.

 

I have no problem paying a bit more for things coming from the UK as they're normally cheaper so the overall cost is less.

 

But how do you explain why is should cost nearly  100% more.

 

How do you explain why HMRC can send me a code for the "gateway" which expires in 28 days and it takes 1 month (30 days) to arrive. By which time the code is useless. I telephone to see why and what can be done. The person I speak to just says all post to Europe takes 1 month to arrive. When I query how they can send a code that expires in 28 days in an envelope that takes 30 to arrive she just gives up and says she can't help and that I should get it sent to a UK address. 

 

Now, here's an interesting point. It's OK for me to have tax details sent to an address in the UK which isn't mine but illegal to have a passport sent to the same address. 

 

I recently ordered a printer and a set of ink cartridges on Ebay from two different suppliers. I ordered on a Sunday. On Wednesday morning a courier van brings me the printer. An hour later Nellie, our post girl, bring me the ink. 3 days.

 

I fail to see why British subjects who elect to live abroad should be penalised over and above any reasonable cost or delivery times. 

 

 

There are many things that make me mad about the French systems. You've never seen so much paper. However I don't rant about it as it's not my country and if that's how they want to do things that's their business. However they do not "rip" off their citizens. They are the most practical people I've come across, I mean who else but the French could design the Citroen 2CV?

 

I do believe that we deserve better, we pay huge sums of money in various taxes, VAT & NI. Far more than the French do and they manage to provide good quality services.

 

However, if you're happy I suppose nothing will change.

 

I was born in 1946. I therefore grew up in the early 50's. I remember that it was shameful and degrading to claim benefits. I remember when we could leave our doors open without fear of being robbed. I remember being satisfied with what we had and not being envious of what others had. I remember we were happy, living in our council flat in Hackney (Upper Clapton - the Upper was important).

 

Those days are gone, you probably never experienced them. So why has it all changed. Is it society or politicians that have brought about the way we live now?

 

By the way do you have any thoughts on this?

 

 

May I give you food for thought. When the insurance database came into effect the French Government ceased their Road Tax as the data they obtained from it, the owner of the vehicles details, was now held on the MIDB. The cost of the Road Tax here covered the cost of admin, it was not to raise tax. Why doesn't the UK government cancel the RFL and add, say, 4p to the price of a litre of fuel? I have my theories, what's yours?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Maybe I'm feeling particularly obtuse today, but I'm not sure I understand the comparison between securely sending official documents and ordering printer cartridges on eBay.  I certainly wouldn't want anything official sent by the courier one ebay seller used recently to me (dropped over garden gate) or even Royal Mail (who used to leave parcels in our recycling bin!)...

 

As for RFL I rather suspect the reason is total tax take and consumer attitudes: a once/twice a year "hit" doesn't leave people with the same impression as paying more each and every time they fill up (or impact RPI in the same way as a one-time switch to fuel-based pricing).  Not to mention that there's probably some need for a mechanism for providing a visual indication of insurance/MOT.  But I'm sure there's a reason why it's all a rip off and we should emulate Guy Fawkes...

[ajpearson]

 

I was born in 1946. I therefore grew up in the early 50's. I remember that it was shameful and degrading to claim benefits. I remember when we could leave our doors open without fear of being robbed. I remember being satisfied with what we had and not being envious of what others had. I remember we were happy, living in our council flat in Hackney (Upper Clapton - the Upper was important).

 

Those days are gone, you probably never experienced them. So why has it all changed. Is it society or politicians that have brought about the way we live now?

 

 

Sadly the day of it being shameful to claim benefits is long gone, even my 13 year old step son believes that it is the way forward (blame his father for being a dole dwelling scum, oh and thats me being polite)

 

i agree Norman, as you know what I do for a job, we are one of the few country that does not give military tax breaks for being overseas in fact they give very little back to us nowadays.

 

I paid a VAST sum in taxes last year as I am lucky and have some money behind me, but you dont seem to get anything decent in return for it, lets face it the country is in a state of disrepair but we are too worries about what is happening overseas.

 

I say lets start with the country first, get our children out of food poverty, get employment working properly and stop the bl**** benefit scum.  Once and only then should we be considering helping others

[Mike H]

I fail to see why British subjects who elect to live abroad should be penalised over and above any reasonable cost or delivery times

Because you're high maintenance?

Seriously the state machine is too big in the uk and it has to be paid for. However I wouldn't trust any private company to run the passport office - would you?

[Norman Verona]

Aj, I am very uneasy with Help for Heroes charity for two reasons. Firstly soldiers welfare has been looked after by the British legion for 100 years.

But, more importantly, looking after soldiers injured in service is our responsibility. It's one of the genuine reasons we pay taxes.

It's disgusting the way our young injured men serving their country are treated by us.

We have been brainwashed into thinking the government are our rulers and we must accept what they dictate. The days of an effective opposition our in the past.

Just to remind everyone, democracy, British style, was for a community to elect it's representative to go to Westminster and represent the community it was elected for. Novel idea isn't it.

Wile, I was not comparing passport delivery but 30 days to send me the hmrc gateway code.

I'm a bit mystified that you cite security when Scott's wife signs for his passport.

Passports go missing in the Royal Mail on a daily basis. I have a friend who was a security officer in the PO. That was a few years ago but I doubt it's changed.

If it was explained that changing rfl to a duty on fuel did the following:

Remove thousands from criminality.

Charge those that used the roads more or drove high consumption vehicles more

Charge most foreign vehicles a tax for using our roads.

Free the police from chasing those with no rfl.

Take about 30, 000 civil servants of our payroll.

I can only see benefit for us, the taxpayer, where's the problem. As long as the new duty on fuel kept the cost about the same as it is now. Say 12000 miles at the average fuel consumption.

As I said, we get the government we deserve. If you're happy to accept it it will never change.

[Norman Verona]

Mike, I'm not saying the passport office should be privatised. If it was I would be complaining about that.

 

I just feel that the Government are charging far too much to it's British Subjects who live overseas because we have no option but to pay. I accept that we should pay a bit more to have it delivered. Passports in the UK are sent recorded delivery by Royal Mail. That is not secure. I'm sure the courier company will not get £72.86 from a commercial organisation to securely deliver a document from the UK to France. I used to send company documents by secure package from London to Chicago by Fed EX for about a fiver. That was 18 years ago so shall we double that. £10 versus £72.86 (ignore the difference in distance). If you had to pay that yourself or charge a customer which would you choose?