Ot - Accident / Claims Advice

[JustCallMeMac]

Hi,

Need some advice please.

My 19yr old daughter was involved in an accident yesterday afternoon, when she went in to the back of someone. No one was hurt and whilst my daughter's car suffered most damage and wasn't drivable, (bonnet creased badly, radiator broken etc), the other car appeared to have rear bumper damage only and mainly cosmetic, although I'm not sure of the extent of the damage underneath.

Apparently she was forced in to an emergency stop, on a straight road, when the car in front, of the car in front, (if you see what I mean), anchored on for no apparent reason, causing the incident. That car didn't stop but my daughter couldn't avoid the vehicle in front of her, albeit speed of impact wasn't that great. When my wife got to the scene, the Asian youths from the car she had hit, were being aggressive, all complaining of being shaken up and of having neck and back pain, taking pictures of the incident and demanding personal contact details. They didn't give two hoots about the welfare of my daughter who was devastated, confused and shaken up and they left her and my wife trying to push her car in to a garage forecourt to get it off the road.

When the Police turned up they advised not to provide personal details and to take pictures of the damage to the other car as well, just in case it was needed in the future, as it wasn't uncommon for inflated claims to be made based on damage that was caused after the event. Once the youths had driven off the Officers told us that it was highly likely my daughter had been the victim of a scam, whereby a shunt is deliberately caused by a couple of vehicles working together, so that insurance claims can be logged, which will almost always guarantee a payout. And there is nothing that can be done. Not to mention the danger they put my daughter and indeed others in. What if something had been coming up behind her? The outcome could have been far worse

I won't use this forum to voice what I am truly thinking but I am literally seething and all I will say is what absolute Feckers and I just wish I had been there! At the end of the day though my daughter is OK and that's what matters most.

Anyway, my daughter's car is a 53 plate Ford KA. Bought it for around £1,500.00 but looks like it could be considered an insurance write off, even though damage may only amount to a few hundred quids worth, according to the recovery driver.

If it is and the insurance company pay out, (whatever we can ultimately settle at) and assuming the car is considered safe to drive, post repairs, should they be carried out, I'd be interested in buying the car back and having the work done as, for it's age, the car is in excellent condition, has done extremely low mileage and has been ultra reliable and there is no way I will be able to pick up another of the same spec, for the payment we will receive.

I've not done this before so any advice regarding the process and procedure, if I was to go down this route, would be most welcome. I take it that the car would also be classed as a Cat C / D so what are the implications, apart from lower resale values, not that this concerns me.

Obviously my preference is for the car to be repaired by the insurer's with only the excess paid, but it seems that, for a car of such limited value, this is highly unlikely. Again, is there anyway of fighting this, for example by agreeing to pay a higher excess?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Steve

[Stuart]

Scumbags, but as you say the important thing is she's OK.

If you repair it yourself (or get it repaired yourself) i.e. don't claim on insurance for your damage, then there is usually no excess to pay - excess normally only kicks in when you claim for damage to your own car not the other one. If she has a sizeable excess you therefore might be better off doing it this way (check with the insurance co. though). Just did this myself on my lads old Mazda. Was surprised how easily plastic bumpers can be got back into shape using a heat gun too!

[frag68]

Hi Steve,

Firstly, sorry to hear about your daughter's collision and hope she is OK today.

As for the car, you can speak to the insurance assessor about retaining the salvage for what will more than likely be a small sum which will be deducted from the settlement, depending on whether the car is a CAT C or D. If its an A or B then you have no chance.

However, of more importance is the scam which your daughter was involved in. I work as a fraud advisor for an insurer and this scenario is all too common now. Most insurers are becoming tough on fraud and are taking these cases on and fighting them. I will bet that the "victims" were in an older luxury type car, ie a BMW or Merc etc and had a pre written piece of paper with their details on. The reason for the older luxury car is so they can hire a like for like alternative at an inflated rate for the accident management company who they will be in cahoots with. The other thing is the immediate onset of pain. Evidence suggests that neck and back pain manifests some hours after the collision, very rarely immediately. If so why do 3 or 4 people suffer the same immediate onset of symptoms when th statistics for this are so low?

My only advice here is to get your daughter's insurers to start their investigations as soon as possible and get statements from all concerned, ie your wife, daughter and the police. Get the images to them as well and retain a copy yourself. Ask they do validation checks on all the claimants and claims companies, hire, storage etc. If the insurers do suspect foul play, they should refuse to deal with any part of the claim and force the "innocent" passengers to claim off the insurers of the other vehicle. The big issue here is that the passengers are almost likely to succeed in their claim for their whiplash injuries, as it will be impossible for a Judge to say that these passenges got into that car knowing the driver was going to deliberately slam on his brakes for financial gain.

If the insurers of the car in front suspect foul play as well, they may well refuse indemnity to the driver and therefore he will be personally liable for all costs possibly including your daughter's claim, if the evidence is strong enough. This is the only way to deter these claims by making the person responsible for the collision personally accountable for thousands of pounds.

It does look like a classic slam on with the aid of a stooge vehicle. These people target commercial vehicles, high profile cars such as new BMWs Mercs etc and young female drivers as they are more than likely to be insured. They are not going to take the risk on a possible uninsured older vehicle.

The down side is, these claims are very difficult to prove and really needs both insurers to work together. Its posible to succeed an I have had successes in cases, but the same said, there are lots of cases where we have had to throw in the towel as there isnt enough evidence to convince a Judge that this was a contrived accident.

Best of luck with the defence, but please make your daughter's insurers aware of your concerns.

Fraser

[User0083]

Biggest issue here is the encreased premiums your daughter is going to face for 5-7yrs!

You said the occupants of the car infront were confrontational, very common for their culture and as females are considered less than second rate citizens... White girls are all seen in an extremely low social standing and, from my experience, are seen solely as sex objects... Sorry, drifted a bit there! But car your daughter hit had occupants, car infront's occupants there too? We're details of that car recorded?

As far as insurance Cat's go Cat D is beyond economical repair, no structural damage, Cat C is beyond economical repair with minor structural damage but no damage to chassis. Either are able to be repaired and put back on the road. Then Cat be can be used as parts and Cat A can't have any parts used (basically). With Car D/C write off's it must be declared on re-sale of vehicle and make it impossible to sell. Insurance is also encreased on these vehicles.

Personally I would do whatever I could to try and avoid the write off... Local garage can Recieve the car, other than where insurance takes it and can quote insurance company a price that's economical for repair. Which is 80% of market value. But it's a fight and for the £1500 value... It's better off just getting another car.

My westfield was hit on way home, first time I drove it and not my fault, but my insurance went up by 1/3rd! My car was assessed and declared a Cat C in Devon two days after it arrived in Westfield factory! Took me eight weeks to argue the case, even after the car had been repaired by Westfield and funded by the insurance company. I'd paid £10k, owned car 3hours, market value was £3k!!!! It took me to find 7 example of a Westfield at around same age and £10k to get value raised and work started.

Basically, yes you had a great car and I hope your daughter's ok. But just let insurance do what they want and get another car. I'm a Devon lad and live in Brum now, this stuff happens all the time. Usually young, white, females targeted.

[JustCallMeMac]

Fraser, thank you so much for taking the time to put together such a detailed and comprehensive reply. That is brilliant advice and we will definately follow it up immediately.

My wife just smiled when she read your comment about the 'pre-written' piece of paper. They weren't quite that organised but a pen and pad were unceremoniously shoved under my daughter's nose, within a few seconds of the impact!!

It's actually quite scary to think that this scam is so rife. Google is your friend!!

Thank you again.

Steve

[pete g]

if you have there details go and visit there address quick and see if you can get pictures of the car before they start hitting it with a hammer to make the damage look more.

[User0083]

Oh, forgot to say...

While in Germany the insurance companies issued drivers with an "Accident Pack" loads of stuff in there, but I carry a small pencil case containing a disposable camera, note pad, blue, black and red pens (for colour coordinated diagrams) and spare change. Although now times have moved on I just use camera on phone. But still get diagram drawn and make notes.

Never had an accident until moving to Birmingham. Had guy drive into back of me and drive off, guy drive into side of me three weeks later, no insurance! Had girl drive into front of me four months later and a year after that I've just had a guy drive into my rear quarter.

[frag68]

Hi Steve,

Just noticed your location. Hampshire Constabulary are generally Ok to deal with and your insurers should have access to the report once the attending officers have it compiled. Had it been the Met, then things are a bit different.

Just ensure that your daughter's insurers apply for it and follow it up. Ask that they do not accept liability without doing all the leg work first. As I said, these cases are extremely difficult to prove, but as long as the insurers do the work and do it early on and do nothing to prejudice the case then you stand a better chance.

The biggest problem in these cases are the insurers bein all to ready to accept liability to keep costs to a minimum, as no doubt there will be storage, recovery and credit hire charges which will mount up to thousands of pounds if allowed to drag on, which I why the pre accident value of the claimant's car often gets paid before investigations are complete. Even if the claimant's drove away from the scene, they will no doubt have recovery charges from their home address to the place of storage, which sometimes doesnt even exist.

Please let me know if you need any help.

[housebeautician]

Steve

My daughter in law had the same thing happen

set up from start to finish and all asians, bully boy tactics on her to get her details and mobile no.

Within an hour she was getting threatening phone calls from a garage in brum from an asian with lots of different names claiming to be an assessor say that he had inspected the car she had just hit ( IT happened in N.London)and he also wanted her ins details (already given to scammer she hit).

She told this bloke that details of the ins co had been handed over and that he should get them off the bloke he had just seen. he then became abusive and called her all the white wotsits he could think of.

This went on for a couple of days which upset her greatly. I at this point was told of what went on and took her phone off her and waited for him to call. In the meantime i tracked down his garage which did exist. I did not have to wait long before he called, he was a bit surprised that a bloke answered the phone but soon got back into his stride and after i told him to contact the insurance co he started to threaten me with all sorts and that he knew where my D in law lived and he was was going to come down and do all sorts of things to her and her house.

At this point i got, shall we say a little bit cross and told him that i knew of his garage, where it was what it looked like etc and that if he continued to call and threaten me or the family again, i would not call the police, he would get a visit. He went quite and then hung up.

I hope your daughter did not give her phone no to the bar stewards but be aware that if she did she may well get calls from them.

As far as the car is concerned the assessor i understand will write off any little car over ten years old (I was told this twice by assessors recently as i have lost two cars to minor damage) Unless you fix the car yourself i would not bother with it just get another. One i lost was very low milage and in lovely condition and it did not matter a bit.

At the end of the day, The car is just a box on wheels, and as angry as it makes you that these scumbags have done this to your daughter, be thankful that she is ok, you can always get another car.

[frag68]

Housebeutician,

What you said is also very typical of these incidents. Its the so called accident mangement companies who stage these accidents that employ bullying tactics to get you to give an admission of liability and then they can start to inflate costs, be obstructive to insurers etc simply to maximise profit.

The guys involved in the accident will have paid to be there so they can claim their compensation.

My advice is to hit them where it hurts, not between the legs with your boot, but in their pocket, as they usually do this for financial gain through poverty. Most of the people caught up in this are unemployed and on benefits, (thats for another topic on another day) and therefore have a financial motive for getting involved in the scam. If their claim doesnt get paid, or if it takes a couple of years to get paid, they will certainly think twice about doing it again. Same for the accident management companies who initiate these claims in the first place.

[jeff oakley]

My next door neighbour also is a fraud investigator who would confirm everything that has been said her. What is dispicable is that the insurance companies are their own worst enemies, they pay out claims to these accident management companies for no good reason. My wife was run into the damages was a dented rear wing on the Jag. My car was fully drivable and yet against my advice to our company a loan Merc arrived. The repair to the Jag was about £1200 the hire costs were over £3500!!! When I questioned this it was seen as a normal and reasonable charge, how so? We then got a claim from the person who ran into my wife claiming whiplash as she disputed the decision of the two insurance companies, they were going to pay as it was cheaper than going through the court until I really threw my teddy out. The claim stopped after that.

I have never claimed for personal injury or has any of my family because minor bumps do not cause the injuries that are claimed. We need to root out the scum who make the claims, those like the no win people who profit from them and the hire companies who also profit. But in many cases due to race issues there is a reluctance to go after the ethnic groups that this is common to and until we go after everyone with no fear or favour this will get worse.

On a note, for all but in particularly women is cameras like roadhawk. We have them in all our vans and we have provided police with evidence they can use on more than one occassion where this was clearly a scam for cash crash. We have also had people who have run into our vans see the camera and gone away sharpish. Worth considering and always get the police involved, when they ask just say that you are feeling unwell and they will be there like a flash.

As others have said at least your daughter is fine.

[Fangi0]

Yes it's becoming a common scam. Young lad I taught to drive last year minding his business in mum's car had yobbos reverse into him with all the set piece aggression and threats. Police took no action but his insurance paid out. Now he can't get insurance and he's off the road - through no fault of his own.

[User0083]

While I was driving across town today I had the vehicle in front of me slam their brakes on, lock up and grind to a halt!

There was no traffic coming in opposite direction, nothing behind me, nothing in front of them and no cars parked at side of the road (No Witnesses?).

As they stopped the two front door opened, at this point I'm checking rear mirrors and getting ready to back out and get moving! The two "Asian" blokes walking towards me had camera phones out ready and passenger was rubbing his neck. The driver was shouting "What you doing? Are you F'ng stupid? you've driven into me!!!" At which point I shouted something I can not write on here (Not racist, but swearing), but basically calling him stupid as there was a clear 3 feet between me and him!

Anyone that owns a Westfield knows that that extra bit of space is a good idea and this time I was lucky that I left more than enough room. This is clearly a failed scam attempt. I reported it to the local police station and am publicising it on here and anywhere else that I can. These are the people that put premiums up and clearly should be behind bars... or deported! I think we should pull British residents out of the Falklands and turn it into a huge prison island. Kinda like what they did with Australia!

This was in Birmingham, Winson Green area, but i suggest everyone just give that extra car length. I was lucky and nothing happened... but could've been another accident to add to the list in Birmingham!

[Norman Verona]

I've followed this thread and seen the subject covered on TV.

I'm getting the impression that a lot of these fake accidents take place in the Birmingham area.

It's difficult to understand why the Police don't take more action. A few prosecutions followed by 2 or 3 year custodial sentences may well stop the practice.

[frag68]

Birmingham, London, the North West of England are all hot spots.

guest, you did the right thing taking images, however just be aware that the may have your registration number and a subsequent claim may come in. Be prepared.

Norman, the insurance industry have funded a special police force called IFED to look at the smaller cases like this sort of thing and have had some successful prosecutions already, but the problem is that the normal forces/constabularies are under staffed and resourced that they cant take every minor case on. The Court system is also in overload, so if its not a high profile case in the public interest, then I'm afraid, no prosecutions will be made.

My only advice is to be vigilant firstly, and if you are involved in a bump is take plently of images at the scene and make sure your insurers take the case on.