Road -> Track Priorities... Upgrade, Or Change Car?

[AdamR]

Hello all,

I'm after a bit of guidance please, or some feedback from people who have previously been in a similar boat!

Over the last year or so, my car has been gradually morphing from a fast-road-based vehicle (full screen, squishy seats)...

... To a more track-y car (aeroscreen, GRP seats, new wheels/tyres, ARB, LSD, stiffer springs, upgraded front brake pads)... I am wondering what the best course of action is going forward.

With it being too fast to enjoy properly on the roads, I unfortunately don't take it out very often other than track days. I have an MX-5 for wind-in-the-hair road blasting and general fooling around (complete with 5-year old £20-when-new rear tyres), so I can get my open top fix when necessary.

Although the car is very reliable at the moment, and would be a sound base for upgrading, I am wondering if it would be 'better' (in terms of money, compatibility issues with new parts, development time, etc) to change the car completely. I can be of the impatient type, although spending a winter in the workshop is something I would actually enjoy.

I know it's not all about numbers, but at the moment the car is somewhere around 175bhp, plenty of torque and 575kg. Ideally I don't want to end up heavier than that, and obviously wouldn't be troubled if I had a bit more power, but my main port of call is handling. It goes well already (

), but you always want more eh?

Currently the car has rear drum brakes, standard track up front, live axle (which I quite like for track stuff), standard T9 gearbox, shortened/baffled sump, lightened flywheel, uprated clutch, throttle bodies etc (http://www.fbbmotorsport.co.uk/ms_html_files/west1spec.html).

The sort of things I would like are: full cage, some good quality shocks, a set of wheels with slicks on (if the car will take it without a dry sump?), some sort of digi dash with more detailed info about oil temps etc, rear discs would be nice, lighter front uprights, larger oil catch tank, cut off switches... The list goes on haha

I am guessing I would need to spent at least £3-4k to get the car to this point, plus time?

Looking around, you can get something that's pretty much there, ready to go, by adding that sort of money to what the car is worth: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westfield-Seiw-caterham-r400-r500-track-race-XE-SBD-lightweight-carbon-/160862790836?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item25742b64b4

Or, since the car will rarely (if at all) be used on the roads, an ex Tiger / MK / etc race car, which you know will have had the development done, for around £9,000 with the same spec. I'm not too bothered about cosmetics, the mechanicals is what I'm concerned with.

So, finally, a question People who have gone down the same route in the past, what have you done? And would you do it differently next time?

I guess it's a fairly personal / subjective question, but any input would be gratefully received!

Cheers,

Adam

[XTR2Turbo]

Not an easy decision.

One other factor though if you think you may want to do sprints in the future as your decision would impact the class you could enter. (e.g. road legal or not)

[D7PNY]

Gone down a similar path as yourself.

Spent a fair bit but got the car to the stage now that it will cost serious ££'s to get it wher I would want if I take it any further.

I plan to just maintain as it is for a while and then eventually swap it for something else when I want to upgrade.

That one on ebay was sold on here last year I think?! Definately a nice looking car but I'm sure it was advertised for 10.5k on here? Could be wrong though.

Cheers,

Dave

[AdamR]

One other factor though if you think you may want to do sprints in the future as your decision would impact the class you could enter. (e.g. road legal or not)

That's a good point. I would love to do some sprints at some point, however the spec of car I'm looking at wouldn't even be close to competitive whether it had a full screen or not... I would just do it for fun

Gone down a similar path as yourself.

Spent a fair bit but got the car to the stage now that it will cost serious ££'s to get it wher I would want if I take it any further.

I plan to just maintain as it is for a while and then eventually swap it for something else when I want to upgrade.

That one on ebay was sold on here last year I think?! Definately a nice looking car but I'm sure it was advertised for 10.5k on here? Could be wrong though.

Cheers for the input there Dave! It sounds like upgradeitis is incurable then

If something like that can be had for 10.5k, it seems more likely that swapping the car would be the better option... I guess end of season (or whenever the most competition-orientated cars come up for sale) is the time to make a more informed decision?

[Terry Everall]

Adam

As already stated this is tricky but if you want slicks the Zetec will need dry sump and its probably not powerful enough. You also have a crap gearbox IMHO and straight cut, close ratio is better for track with a long first gear

Most people do the upgrades and then realise they spent far far more than if they sold car and bought one that was closer to what they need.

You should consider the blade cars ( particularly the 1000cc ones as the produce serious bhp ) which don't need dry sump system and are very light and quick.

So my advice would be look at a different car. If you stick to CEC look at uprated red top engine or durance option

[SootySport]

Oh dear! Adam, you have your MX5 racecar now for the track, don't you, do really have to constantly upgrade the Westfield for just Trackdays? Seems a lot of outlay on 2 cars for the track. Just my thoughts.

[Bean]

I've gone down a very similar route to you, modified a soft seated, windscreened, CVH road car into a lightweight XE fair weather and track day toy.

What do you want to use the car for? If I were you I'd enter a few sprints and hill climbs for the fun of it, don't worry about being competitive as that will come from experience rather than spending money.

[Onliest Smeg David]

By Eck Adam!

You're buying and selling more cars than a dealer!!!

If it was me, I would buy a car with everything on it! In fact If I could afford it I'd be doing so now!!

But you're not me, and have the ability and resources to do the work yourself and as you've indicated would enjoy the experience.

So you choose....

Change cars, spend less unless all the nice bits haven't been put together very well!

DIY and know all the works been done well, but spend more.

As always following your journey will be a good read?!

[AdamR]

*snip*

Thanks Terry - your input is appreciated. I have certainly thought about a BEC, especially if it's going to be mostly track work. The lightweight nature really appeals to me, it just 'makes sense'.

It definitely sounds like a car switch would be the way to go even if not changing to a BEC though, given that this one would need some serious work to get it up to where I think I want it to be...

Oh dear! Adam, you have your MX5 racecar now for the track, don't you, do really have to constantly upgrade the Westfield for just Trackdays? Seems a lot of outlay on 2 cars for the track. Just my thoughts.

I see where you are coming from there mate. Maybe it's a bit mad, I dunno... The MX-5 is a totally different car though - it's dead slow (but fun - and it has to stay that way for the series regs). Having got rid of the Skoda, which was costing me £1000 a year before even putting any fuel in it (insurance, tax, MOT, servicing), I figured I can run two track-only cars and maybe even end up saving money overall. Buy the right car and it will hardly depreciate and all that.

I think I'm just one of those people with itchy feet. One major part of my life is rather boring and will never deviate sadly (my work), so I am always looking for interest / learning / fun in another area...

What do you want to use the car for? If I were you I'd enter a few sprints and hill climbs for the fun of it, don't worry about being competitive as that will come from experience rather than spending money.

That's a good question really - I guess I want to use it for the occasional road blat (good to clear the head), the odd sprint possibly, but mainly trackday stuff. I'm after a car that gives me the maximum driving experience, where I need to concentrate fully to keep it pointing the right way, and that will reward smooth driving with plenty of G in the bends! I don't know if something with downforce is too much of a step for now, but there are some really interesting little sports prototype cars

I agree that time with bum in seat is more valuable than the best car, I'm working on that (race in an MX-5 series and trying to get to at least one trackday a month).

Stuff like this looks bl**dy brilliant, but I'd be worried about how rare they are and therefore lack of 'support'... Spire GTR and BDN S2

Cheers for the input gents!

[AdamR]

By Eck Adam!

You're buying and selling more cars than a dealer!!!

If it was me, I would buy a car with everything on it! In fact If I could afford it I'd be doing so now!!

But you're not me, and have the ability and resources to do the work yourself and as you've indicated would enjoy the experience.

So you choose....

Change cars, spend less unless all the nice bits haven't been put together very well!

DIY and know all the works been done well, but spend more.

As always following your journey will be a good read?!

Haha! Nah not really. Well maybe. Oh heck

I guess your summing up of the situation is a pretty good one there. I'm a tight b******* so I'm leaning towards buying rather than building!

As long as I keep you entertained then, right?

[D7PNY]

Definately a tough one and I honestly think there is not a right answer too it!

Upgrading will ultimately cost you more than swapping but upgrading often spreads the cost out which can be VERY useful!

I have been happy with my car at every stage but when something has broken I have upgraded as the relative cost seems less then.

Like for example, head gave up earlier this year so whilst replacing that I stuck cams in as it was apart anyway.

To take my engine further now is big bucks so not worth it anymore in my opinion.

On the other hand, were a high spec second hand red top to come up for a few k then it would make sense to swap engines rather than change cars because at that point it would cost more to change!

Can tie yourself up in knots trying to work out what is best!

Dave

[tcc21racing]

Adam, you could allways sell your westie and buy mine for the same sort of money as yours could fetch, last years Speed Series Class E winning car and Novice title, quick car but most importantly it is very reliable ;)

[Jenko]

I've gone down the upgrade route...bought a basic car about 7 yrs ago, and it's taken me that long to get it where I want. I have similar ish power to you, have spent a decent amount of money making the car as light as possible and having the suspension set up by a pro, and realised some time ago that it's my driving that probably costs me the most in lap times. I would always upgrade in the following order 1). Driving skill, 2). Handling, 3). Power.

For me I get a big chunk of enjoyment tinkering and upgrading....sometimes, dare I say it, I prefer this do driving.

[AdamR]

Definately a tough one and I honestly think there is not a right answer too it!

Can tie yourself up in knots trying to work out what is best!

Dave

Yeah, that seems to be the head and tail of it! Unfortunately I think I'm too 'impatient' to upgrade stuff very slowly as it breaks. Bad personality trait or not, that's just the way it is... my brain gets bored quickly!

Adam, you could allways sell your westie and buy mine for the same sort of money as yours could fetch, last years Speed Series Class E winning car and Novice title, quick car but most importantly it is very reliable ;)

Actually Tom, I have been over your advert and pics quite a few times... Even though the spec on paper is pretty similar, I think the few tweaks here and there would add up to a pretty large difference between our two cars. Maybe it's the perfect 'next step', or maybe I would get 'bored' within a few months haha. Shame you are so flippin far away though, so I can't just pop over. I'll have a good think - cheers!

I've gone down the upgrade route...bought a basic car about 7 yrs ago, and it's taken me that long to get it where I want. I have similar ish power to you, have spent a decent amount of money making the car as light as possible and having the suspension set up by a pro, and realised some time ago that it's my driving that probably costs me the most in lap times. I would always upgrade in the following order 1). Driving skill, 2). Handling, 3). Power.

For me I get a big chunk of enjoyment tinkering and upgrading....sometimes, dare I say it, I prefer this do driving.

Thanks for your input! 7 years - you are a more patient man than me I do agree that handling (and the person that provides the handling) is above power though, definitely.

I too enjoy the tinkering side of it. I guess one of the best things about kit cars (for us, anyway!) is that there is always something to tweak, no matter what you have done to the car.

I think I am leaning towards changing the car... But unsure how much of a 'step' to make. Sorry for playing this out on a forum, just trying to get things set in my head with a few pointers from people who have been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt!

[gixermark]

those mid engined cars woudl be god track ******s... but depends if you do want a car to take out on the road for the odd blat... ?

do bear in mind that the mind engine cars have bodywork - sounds obvious !! but don;t underestimate the added complexity this gives for working on the car - storing the body panels when in your garage.... often a 2 man job to get on/off... and ground clearance is often lower - so harder to load/unload etc etc.. the more bespoke you go with som eof the mid engined stuff the handier you'll need to be with spanners.. and maybe getting one off things machined/made..

that wesy on e-bay sounds a nice spec...... not sure if its still for sale, but there was an R1 powered global light for sale recently that sounded ok... although there did seem to be lost of issues with R1 engines in globals with heating issues - coudl be internet gossip, but something worth investigating